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This response would have benefited from a more humane wording. I wish the tone on HN would be less hostile. Just shows that some help wording things can be a us

This response would have benefited from a more humane wording. I wish the tone on HN would be less hostile. Just shows that some help wording things can be a useful tool.

mdp2021 4y ago
The effort reeks of automated hypocrisy. I am aware that hypocrisy is tolerated in vast areas, but be reminded that it is a mortal offence in others. A "kind" word has the opposite value when said unfelt.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  People are not great at detecting hypocrisy from people they don't already know intimately. The general idea of automating pleasant sentiment in personal async communication should work (not this implementation, which seems more fit for mass mailing) for a bit. We will be quick to adjust to recognize it as automated and see roughness or even borderline rudeness as a positive signal of personal attention.
  - Veen 4y ago
    > People are not great at detecting hypocrisy from people they don't already know intimately. I immediately suspect hypocrisy when someone I don't know sends me a super-friendly, over-familiar, and flattering email asking for something.
    - throwaway290 4y ago
      I mean none of that. Just nice polite and positive-sounding messages. For me that simply describes most of communication except with close friends/family (there were a couple of colleagues who would swear and be negative or frank to the point of rudeness but it's generally rare). I'm sure in most cases people do not genuinely feel that way towards me and are faking niceness (being hypocritical) but rejecting all of it would mean rejecting a lot of actually nice people, so with people I don't know well I assume good faith and respond or not based on the substance of what they write. This is what I mean by "bad at detecting hypocrisy".
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        Nobody is rejecting niceness. We are rejecting falsity - it is lying. We are warning: don't do it. Act properly. Properly is "respectfully". With proportionate measures. Lying is plain disrespectful, and more.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        Being nice and warm to people is lying and falsity unless you feel that way towards them genuinely. If you don't think so then I guess you may be among those employing such hypocrisy without a second thought. In routine communication I probably won't detect your hypocrisy because again people are bad at this. I will assume you are genuine and reply to you. An idea like proposed, if properly implemented, may help other people who are less adjusted and perhaps incapable of employing such hypocrisy.
        mdp2021 4y ago
        I am suspecting that you are holding assumptions which are not the case. So, let us be clear: -- yes, you are supposed to be «nice and warm» only in case this is genuine. If it is not, just behave appropriately. "Respectful" does not imply «nice and warm». Also: since «nice and warm» does not imply "respectful", and on the contrary it may suggest the opposite if patently constructed, I would be very careful about any temptation to think that some coating "will do"; -- when suggesting the idea of people «employing... hypocrisy», it is very advisable to avoid the term 'you'; -- teaching people hypocrisy, idea which may appear from your text, would be criminal. If you had to orient them, it'd better be towards the substance.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        And I recommend to not use 'we' when speaking for yourself. Regarding your nice -> respectful update, just replace 'nice' with 'respectful' so the proposed idea reads 'correct emails to be respectful if they're not', done.
mdp2021 4y ago
> some help wording And which wording would you have suggested, to improve the literal post from Skilled, while retaining exactly the meaning Skilled intended? And systems similar to the one submitted would do _that_?
anigbrowl 4y ago
Why? They're using big banks of computers to try and emotionally manipulate people at scale, do you really think that being nicey-nice to them is going to bring them to some sort of moral epiphany? I tried it for years, they just classify that as sucker behavior and laugh it off.
- kolleykibber 4y ago
  Doesn't seem to have done Salesforce any harm.

This response would have benefited from a more humane wording. I wish the tone on HN would be less hostile. Just shows that some help wording things can be a useful tool.

mdp2021 4y ago

The effort reeks of automated hypocrisy. I am aware that hypocrisy is tolerated in vast areas, but be reminded that it is a mortal offence in others. A "kind" word has the opposite value when said unfelt.

throwaway290 4y ago
People are not great at detecting hypocrisy from people they don't already know intimately. The general idea of automating pleasant sentiment in personal async communication should work (not this implementation, which seems more fit for mass mailing) for a bit. We will be quick to adjust to recognize it as automated and see roughness or even borderline rudeness as a positive signal of personal attention.
- Veen 4y ago
  > People are not great at detecting hypocrisy from people they don't already know intimately. I immediately suspect hypocrisy when someone I don't know sends me a super-friendly, over-familiar, and flattering email asking for something.
  - throwaway290 4y ago
    I mean none of that. Just nice polite and positive-sounding messages. For me that simply describes most of communication except with close friends/family (there were a couple of colleagues who would swear and be negative or frank to the point of rudeness but it's generally rare). I'm sure in most cases people do not genuinely feel that way towards me and are faking niceness (being hypocritical) but rejecting all of it would mean rejecting a lot of actually nice people, so with people I don't know well I assume good faith and respond or not based on the substance of what they write. This is what I mean by "bad at detecting hypocrisy".
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      Nobody is rejecting niceness. We are rejecting falsity - it is lying. We are warning: don't do it. Act properly. Properly is "respectfully". With proportionate measures. Lying is plain disrespectful, and more.
      - throwaway290 4y ago
        Being nice and warm to people is lying and falsity unless you feel that way towards them genuinely. If you don't think so then I guess you may be among those employing such hypocrisy without a second thought. In routine communication I probably won't detect your hypocrisy because again people are bad at this. I will assume you are genuine and reply to you. An idea like proposed, if properly implemented, may help other people who are less adjusted and perhaps incapable of employing such hypocrisy.
        mdp2021 4y ago
        I am suspecting that you are holding assumptions which are not the case. So, let us be clear: -- yes, you are supposed to be «nice and warm» only in case this is genuine. If it is not, just behave appropriately. "Respectful" does not imply «nice and warm». Also: since «nice and warm» does not imply "respectful", and on the contrary it may suggest the opposite if patently constructed, I would be very careful about any temptation to think that some coating "will do"; -- when suggesting the idea of people «employing... hypocrisy», it is very advisable to avoid the term 'you'; -- teaching people hypocrisy, idea which may appear from your text, would be criminal. If you had to orient them, it'd better be towards the substance.
        throwaway290 4y ago
        And I recommend to not use 'we' when speaking for yourself. Regarding your nice -> respectful update, just replace 'nice' with 'respectful' so the proposed idea reads 'correct emails to be respectful if they're not', done.

mdp2021 4y ago

> some help wording And which wording would you have suggested, to improve the literal post from Skilled, while retaining exactly the meaning Skilled intended? And systems similar to the one submitted would do _that_?

anigbrowl 4y ago

Why? They're using big banks of computers to try and emotionally manipulate people at scale, do you really think that being nicey-nice to them is going to bring them to some sort of moral epiphany? I tried it for years, they just classify that as sucker behavior and laugh it off.

kolleykibber 4y ago
Doesn't seem to have done Salesforce any harm.