> Knowing stuff like this is table stakes for participating in the discussion. See, for example, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a ht

> Knowing stuff like this is table stakes for participating in the discussion. See, for example, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a... This does not claim at all what you think it does. > In an environment in which rival political parties were banned, torture centers were established, death squads were roaming the streets arresting dissidents, etc, and there was strict control of media. What?, Zelensky was elected in 2019, 5 years after the Maiden revolution you know that right?. Do you have _any_ proof at all, that isn't thinly veiled Russian propaganda?. > So in a place like Ukraine, it doesn't matter who is elected as long as the US controls the country. Zelensky was elected on a peace platform and pro-Minsk 2 platform, and immediately changed his position after the election. This is something you should also research if you want to be informed. Theres literally zero proof the US controls the country, the Ukrainian government didn't even believe the Russians were going to invade. Probably because the Russians themselves continued to say they wouldn't and the Ukrainians put misplaced trust or maybe misguided hope in the words of the Russians. > No, it is the Maidan regime that set up SBU torture centers, burned people alive, buried people alive, funded various Neo-Nazi groups like Aidar, Right Sektor, Azov, banned the use of Russian language, disappeared pro-Russian citizens, banned pro-Russian parties, banned pro-Hungarian parties, etc, and they were committing and continue to commit mass atrocities. There were many articles by Amnesty International and other human rights groups about this. We literally have videos of the Russians committing war crimes against Ukrainian civilians, including execution and castration and we have many many many independent reports of torture and sex crimes including against children. It would be nice if you source any of what you say, your stream of conscientious is not really a source. > preventing Ukraine from hosting NATO troops/bases aka, preventing Ukraine from protecting itself from future Russian attacks. > much to the anger of the Russian population which wants a far more hardline position on Ukraine, particularly in light of all the ethnic cleansing and atrocities committed by this US client regime. This is literally fake news, there is no proof at all that isn't just straight Russian propaganda of any 'genocide' in Ukraine outside of the one that Russia is committing. > I would say, however, that as the war drags on, there is a real chance that Ukraine will end up partitioned into nothing, which is an object lesson to other regimes that wish to be U.S. clients. I dunno, Russia is currently sending out under equipped mobilised citizens with T-62s and keeps recruiting from prisons whilst Ukraine is still fielding T-64s and better equipped and trained soldiers. Russia keeps getting more and more desperate every week, their army has been largely reduced to a pathetic bunch of barely trained cannon fodder lately. I see the Russian army collapsing before Ukraine gets 'partitioned' by some mythical boogey man that doesn't exist. > But I take it that now we agree on the larger point that this proxy war has nothing to do with "sovereignty". This war has everything to do with Ukrainian natural resources and sovereignty, the Russians don't see the Ukrainians as a seperate people or as a real country and feel their position as the worlds gas station is threatened by the natural resources in Ukraine. on Minsk-2 why would anyone believe what Russia says in any international agreement they already promised to not invade Ukraine or even threaten there sovereignty under the Budapest Memorandum?.