6 ms·

Elon Musk and Tucker Carlson Don’t Understand the First Amendment

16 points by jshen 4y ago

clouddrover 4y ago
The error is to assume that Musk actually cares about the First Amendment in the first place. He doesn't. Musk is an authoritarian at heart. What he cares most about is achieving the maximum authority with the least constraint. He will say and do anything in the pursuit of that. In this regard, Musk and Trump are very similar people. For both of them, the First Amendment is a stage prop to be used in their pantomimes. It's not something they truly believe in, especially because people might exercise the First Amendment to criticize them.
- ohiovr 4y ago
  What content was Trump effective at censoring?
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    Protest suppression: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-grotesque-violation-first-amendment/612532/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-gro... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/02/timeline-clearing-lafayette-square/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/02/timeline-...
    - jshen 4y ago
      Those are such great examples, and they are actual violations of the first amendment.
    - ohiovr 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - fhhcvjjgcfgh 4y ago
      Curious why you didn't use 2021 articles that refute your 2020 links.
  - quantified 4y ago
    How is that question relevant?
    - ohiovr 4y ago
      - bilirubin 4y ago
- ephextom 4y ago
  > Musk is an authoritarian at heart. What he cares most about is achieving the maximum authority with the least constraint I'm really wanting to understand where this view comes from. What are the specific pieces of evidence for this? Who does he want authority over? How does that help him achieve his desired outcomes? From my position, I have no dog in the fight but from a brief assessment of his public words and actions I see someone who is fairly left-wing on economics, drug policy and the environment, and his underlying position on free speech seems congruent with those of George Orwell and John Stuart Mill, both of whom were strongly left-libertarian in their time. What are the specific pieces of evidence that demonstrate what he really wants, and what will really benefit him personally, is to take away people's freedom and agency?
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > I'm really wanting to understand where this view comes from. Musk's free advice for Ukraine is to submit to Russia. Ukraine advised Musk to "fuck off": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/04/zelenskiy-hits-back-as-elon-musk-sets-up-twitter-poll-on-annexed-areas https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/04/zelenskiy-hits... But Russia loved him for it: https://futurism.com/the-byte/russia-loves-elon-musk-now https://futurism.com/the-byte/russia-loves-elon-musk-now Musk's free advice for Taiwan is to submit to China: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk-taiwan-china-special-administrative-zone-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk... Musk says China rocks and the US is full of complacency and entitlement: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-rocks-us-full-of-entitlement.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-ro... He ridiculously called California's covid measures fascist: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21242102/elon-musk-coronavirus-fascist-shelter-in-place-tesla-covid-19-safety-science https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21242102/elon-musk-corona... But had Tesla praise China's covid measures because Tesla "believed Shanghai's COVID-19 measures helped lay the foundation for the city's future development": https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-suspends-production-shanghai-factory-4-days-comply-with-covid-curbs-2022-03-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-... Musk voted for Mayra Flores, an election denier and January 6th conspiracy theorist: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536973965394157569 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536973965394157569 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-drifting-toward-trumpian-republican-politics-n1296529 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-drifti... https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics/mayra-flores-capitol-riot-qanon-kfile/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics/mayra-flores-cap... Musk spreads conspiracy theories himself: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/30/elon-musk-twitter-baseless-conspiracy-theory-paul-pelosi-attack https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/30/elon-musk... Musk fires employees when they disagree with him, publicly or privately. So much for his free speech absolutism: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/15/23460729/elon-musk-fire-twitter-engineers-dissent https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/15/23460729/elon-musk-fire-... Then Musk had a laugh about it in public. He enjoys it: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592569305941807104 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592569305941807104 Musk is showing you who and what he is. Believe him.
- mcrad 4y ago
  But hallmarks of authoritarianism are censorship, centralized power, collusion of private and public sectors. If by authoritarian you mean he is mean to crybabies in his own company, you might read up on how actual authoritarians have gained power throughout history (hint: they get the crybabies on their side) Clearly, Musk got into the Twitter business to reduce authoritarian tendencies exhibited by former staff.
proc0 4y ago
Ok... so according to this article, Elon can start censoring Democrats and any left wing ideas and that should be ok, right? That wouldn't violate free speech. He can get funding from the RNC, work with Republicans who are not in government, and let them dictate how the platform should be run. Twitter can become a right wing haven, having massive amounts of influence on the public without any challenge from the other side, and that should be perfectly fine, correct? I see it like this: there are two sides... the side that is ok with double standards, and the side that thinks double standards are unfair. This article is arguing in favor of double standards. It's crazy how people can argue for double standards, and still think you're on the good side.
- sidibe 4y ago
  > Ok... so according to this article, Elon can start censoring Democrats and any left wing ideas and that should be ok, right? That wouldn't violate free speech. He can get funding from the RNC, work with Republicans who are not in government, and let them dictate how the platform should be run. Twitter can become a right wing haven, having massive amounts of influence on the public without any challenge from the other side, and that should be perfectly fine, correct? As far as the 1st amendment goes: correct.
  - proc0 4y ago
    Then great, that is consistent. I just doubt that would be the case. I think the actual justification for banning one political side is not "it's a private company", but rather "it allows our side to win".
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > I think the actual justification for banning one political side is not “it’s a private company” That wasn’t the claimed justification. (That is the reason it is not a violation of Constitutional free speech, but not the reason for the action.)
    - jshen 4y ago
      No one banned one political side except Fox News
mcrad 4y ago
The 14th Amendment may be more applicable. Despite what 1A states, censorship is unconstitutional, and nobody believes this baloney that the accused is innocent as long as they aren't "in the government"
- NoahKAndrews 4y ago
  Which section of the 14th are you referring to?
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The 14th Amendment may be more applicable. No, its not. Because Twitter also isn’t a state government, and the only thing the 14th Amendment has to do with free speech is that it is held to incorporate the same protections that the 1A provides against the federal government against the state governments. > Despite what 1A states, censorship is unconstitutional Private censorship is not only constitutional, it is constitutionally protected against federal and state action by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. In fact, the whole point of Constitutional freedom of expression is to protect private parties right to decide for themselves on what expression to make or relay.
  - mcrad 4y ago
    Twitter is a public company ok?
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Twitter is a public company ok? (1) it is, in fact, not a public company, and (2) it used to be a “public comoany” in the sense of “has shares traded on open stock markets rather than exclusively in individual off-market trades”, but that sense of “public” is still not a government actor covered by tbe restriction on the federal government in 1A or that on state governments in 14A. That is simply a different sense of the words “public” and “private” then is relevant here.
      - 4y ago

16 points by jshen 4y ago

The error is to assume that Musk actually cares about the First Amendment in the first place. He doesn't. Musk is an authoritarian at heart. What he cares most about is achieving the maximum authority with the least constraint. He will say and do anything in the pursuit of that. In this regard, Musk and Trump are very similar people. For both of them, the First Amendment is a stage prop to be used in their pantomimes. It's not something they truly believe in, especially because people might exercise the First Amendment to criticize them.

ohiovr 4y ago
What content was Trump effective at censoring?
- clouddrover 4y ago
  Protest suppression: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-grotesque-violation-first-amendment/612532/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/trumps-gro... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/02/timeline-clearing-lafayette-square/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/02/timeline-...
  - jshen 4y ago
    Those are such great examples, and they are actual violations of the first amendment.
  - ohiovr 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - fhhcvjjgcfgh 4y ago
    Curious why you didn't use 2021 articles that refute your 2020 links.
- quantified 4y ago
  How is that question relevant?
  - ohiovr 4y ago
    - bilirubin 4y ago
ephextom 4y ago
> Musk is an authoritarian at heart. What he cares most about is achieving the maximum authority with the least constraint I'm really wanting to understand where this view comes from. What are the specific pieces of evidence for this? Who does he want authority over? How does that help him achieve his desired outcomes? From my position, I have no dog in the fight but from a brief assessment of his public words and actions I see someone who is fairly left-wing on economics, drug policy and the environment, and his underlying position on free speech seems congruent with those of George Orwell and John Stuart Mill, both of whom were strongly left-libertarian in their time. What are the specific pieces of evidence that demonstrate what he really wants, and what will really benefit him personally, is to take away people's freedom and agency?
- clouddrover 4y ago
  > I'm really wanting to understand where this view comes from. Musk's free advice for Ukraine is to submit to Russia. Ukraine advised Musk to "fuck off": https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/04/zelenskiy-hits-back-as-elon-musk-sets-up-twitter-poll-on-annexed-areas https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/04/zelenskiy-hits... But Russia loved him for it: https://futurism.com/the-byte/russia-loves-elon-musk-now https://futurism.com/the-byte/russia-loves-elon-musk-now Musk's free advice for Taiwan is to submit to China: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk-taiwan-china-special-administrative-zone-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk... Musk says China rocks and the US is full of complacency and entitlement: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-rocks-us-full-of-entitlement.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-ro... He ridiculously called California's covid measures fascist: https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21242102/elon-musk-coronavirus-fascist-shelter-in-place-tesla-covid-19-safety-science https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/29/21242102/elon-musk-corona... But had Tesla praise China's covid measures because Tesla "believed Shanghai's COVID-19 measures helped lay the foundation for the city's future development": https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-suspends-production-shanghai-factory-4-days-comply-with-covid-curbs-2022-03-28/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-... Musk voted for Mayra Flores, an election denier and January 6th conspiracy theorist: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536973965394157569 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1536973965394157569 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-drifting-toward-trumpian-republican-politics-n1296529 https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/elon-musk-drifti... https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics/mayra-flores-capitol-riot-qanon-kfile/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/23/politics/mayra-flores-cap... Musk spreads conspiracy theories himself: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/30/elon-musk-twitter-baseless-conspiracy-theory-paul-pelosi-attack https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/30/elon-musk... Musk fires employees when they disagree with him, publicly or privately. So much for his free speech absolutism: https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/15/23460729/elon-musk-fire-twitter-engineers-dissent https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/15/23460729/elon-musk-fire-... Then Musk had a laugh about it in public. He enjoys it: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592569305941807104 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592569305941807104 Musk is showing you who and what he is. Believe him.
mcrad 4y ago
But hallmarks of authoritarianism are censorship, centralized power, collusion of private and public sectors. If by authoritarian you mean he is mean to crybabies in his own company, you might read up on how actual authoritarians have gained power throughout history (hint: they get the crybabies on their side) Clearly, Musk got into the Twitter business to reduce authoritarian tendencies exhibited by former staff.

proc0 4y ago

Ok... so according to this article, Elon can start censoring Democrats and any left wing ideas and that should be ok, right? That wouldn't violate free speech. He can get funding from the RNC, work with Republicans who are not in government, and let them dictate how the platform should be run. Twitter can become a right wing haven, having massive amounts of influence on the public without any challenge from the other side, and that should be perfectly fine, correct? I see it like this: there are two sides... the side that is ok with double standards, and the side that thinks double standards are unfair. This article is arguing in favor of double standards. It's crazy how people can argue for double standards, and still think you're on the good side.

sidibe 4y ago
> Ok... so according to this article, Elon can start censoring Democrats and any left wing ideas and that should be ok, right? That wouldn't violate free speech. He can get funding from the RNC, work with Republicans who are not in government, and let them dictate how the platform should be run. Twitter can become a right wing haven, having massive amounts of influence on the public without any challenge from the other side, and that should be perfectly fine, correct? As far as the 1st amendment goes: correct.
- proc0 4y ago
  Then great, that is consistent. I just doubt that would be the case. I think the actual justification for banning one political side is not "it's a private company", but rather "it allows our side to win".
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > I think the actual justification for banning one political side is not “it’s a private company” That wasn’t the claimed justification. (That is the reason it is not a violation of Constitutional free speech, but not the reason for the action.)
  - jshen 4y ago
    No one banned one political side except Fox News

mcrad 4y ago

The 14th Amendment may be more applicable. Despite what 1A states, censorship is unconstitutional, and nobody believes this baloney that the accused is innocent as long as they aren't "in the government"

NoahKAndrews 4y ago
Which section of the 14th are you referring to?
dragonwriter 4y ago
> The 14th Amendment may be more applicable. No, its not. Because Twitter also isn’t a state government, and the only thing the 14th Amendment has to do with free speech is that it is held to incorporate the same protections that the 1A provides against the federal government against the state governments. > Despite what 1A states, censorship is unconstitutional Private censorship is not only constitutional, it is constitutionally protected against federal and state action by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. In fact, the whole point of Constitutional freedom of expression is to protect private parties right to decide for themselves on what expression to make or relay.
- mcrad 4y ago
  Twitter is a public company ok?
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Twitter is a public company ok? (1) it is, in fact, not a public company, and (2) it used to be a “public comoany” in the sense of “has shares traded on open stock markets rather than exclusively in individual off-market trades”, but that sense of “public” is still not a government actor covered by tbe restriction on the federal government in 1A or that on state governments in 14A. That is simply a different sense of the words “public” and “private” then is relevant here.
    - 4y ago