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Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical interven

Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical intervention is perceived as "reversible". Is the perception verifiable? Edit: Consent is absolutely relevant, because it's the crux of the Governor's announcement in Texas.

0ct4via 4y ago
Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  > Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    I can, but given you've gone off half-cocked making various ridiculous claims, eventually admitting once you were wrong, and making personal attacks and accusations you delete, I'm not sure I should be wasting time trying to educate someone who isn't arguing in good faith or being honest to begin with. "When a person stops taking puberty blockers, their body will resume puberty exactly as it would have had they never taken the medication, says Jennifer Osipoff, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at Stony Brook Children’s Hospital in New York." [1] "There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all." [2] "Puberty's physical changes can cause intense distress for many gender-nonconforming adolescents. When taken regularly, GnRH analogues suppress the body's release of sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen, during puberty. [...] Use of GnRH analogues pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead. If an adolescent child decides to stop taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume and the normal progression of the physical and emotional changes of puberty will continue." [3] "Only reversible treatments to delay puberty are recommended for younger adolescents after they have entered puberty, according to our Clinical Practice Guideline and joint policy perspective issued with the Pediatric Endocrine Society." [4] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-rever... [2] http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-trans... [3] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dyspho... [4] https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/endocrine-society-alarmed-at-criminalization-of-transgender-medicine https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/e... Here's another perspective on some common myths that are quickly and easily debunked: https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-debunked https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans... Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    > Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you. I didn't make any claims. Please revisit the argument later after you've cooled off. It was nice chatting, but I think you took me the wrong way. P.S. I'm sorry I called you Skippy. I can see now that it probably got you worked up.
- jl6 4y ago
  > Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Well, apart from the 56 cases mentioned here: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran...
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    So a minority of cases with a pre-existing DX, that'll be happening with both child and parental consent. What's your point? The commenter was disingenuously implying that surgeries were being performed on children without consent, which is absolutely not true. Additionally, a claim of numbers on an insurance system doesn't necessarily mean they've all happened -- and again, it misses the point entirely that even if a negligible amount of minors have tried to claim for surgery, it wouldn't be happening without consent, and wouldn't be happening without stringent psychological and empirical analysis and observation beforehand. It also doesn't say how many of those surgeries were corrective in the event of intersex children experiencing dysphoria, which is an entirely separate matter -- so the statistic is moot without further information.
    - jl6 4y ago
      I'm just responding to you saying "NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children". For whatever reasons, it does happen.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        The discussion was about it being done without consent. Context matters. Going "for whatever reasons" is entirely dismissive and totally reductive -- the reasons are extremely relevant. Case in point, how do you know those weren't primarily intersex children having operations to correct operations forced upon them (without their consent) after birth? How do you know the 17 year old wasn't getting surgery shortly before their 18th birthday, having had therapy and hormone blockers for years prior? Reasons matter. Nitpicking then dismissing context and relevance is just pointless whataboutism.

0ct4via 4y ago

Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.

engineer_22 4y ago
> Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  I can, but given you've gone off half-cocked making various ridiculous claims, eventually admitting once you were wrong, and making personal attacks and accusations you delete, I'm not sure I should be wasting time trying to educate someone who isn't arguing in good faith or being honest to begin with. "When a person stops taking puberty blockers, their body will resume puberty exactly as it would have had they never taken the medication, says Jennifer Osipoff, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at Stony Brook Children’s Hospital in New York." [1] "There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all." [2] "Puberty's physical changes can cause intense distress for many gender-nonconforming adolescents. When taken regularly, GnRH analogues suppress the body's release of sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen, during puberty. [...] Use of GnRH analogues pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead. If an adolescent child decides to stop taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume and the normal progression of the physical and emotional changes of puberty will continue." [3] "Only reversible treatments to delay puberty are recommended for younger adolescents after they have entered puberty, according to our Clinical Practice Guideline and joint policy perspective issued with the Pediatric Endocrine Society." [4] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-rever... [2] http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-trans... [3] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dyspho... [4] https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/endocrine-society-alarmed-at-criminalization-of-transgender-medicine https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/e... Here's another perspective on some common myths that are quickly and easily debunked: https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-debunked https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans... Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  > Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you. I didn't make any claims. Please revisit the argument later after you've cooled off. It was nice chatting, but I think you took me the wrong way. P.S. I'm sorry I called you Skippy. I can see now that it probably got you worked up.
jl6 4y ago
> Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Well, apart from the 56 cases mentioned here: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-care/ https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-tran...
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  So a minority of cases with a pre-existing DX, that'll be happening with both child and parental consent. What's your point? The commenter was disingenuously implying that surgeries were being performed on children without consent, which is absolutely not true. Additionally, a claim of numbers on an insurance system doesn't necessarily mean they've all happened -- and again, it misses the point entirely that even if a negligible amount of minors have tried to claim for surgery, it wouldn't be happening without consent, and wouldn't be happening without stringent psychological and empirical analysis and observation beforehand. It also doesn't say how many of those surgeries were corrective in the event of intersex children experiencing dysphoria, which is an entirely separate matter -- so the statistic is moot without further information.
  - jl6 4y ago
    I'm just responding to you saying "NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children". For whatever reasons, it does happen.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      The discussion was about it being done without consent. Context matters. Going "for whatever reasons" is entirely dismissive and totally reductive -- the reasons are extremely relevant. Case in point, how do you know those weren't primarily intersex children having operations to correct operations forced upon them (without their consent) after birth? How do you know the 17 year old wasn't getting surgery shortly before their 18th birthday, having had therapy and hormone blockers for years prior? Reasons matter. Nitpicking then dismissing context and relevance is just pointless whataboutism.