5 ms·

But children consent to treatment all the time. If you want to talk about non-consensual treatment you could mention surgery provided to intersex children, but

by DanBC 4y ago

But children consent to treatment all the time. If you want to talk about non-consensual treatment you could mention surgery provided to intersex children, but that doesn't fit the narrative.

engineer_22 4y ago
Children do not consent to treatment. Children cannot consent. A child might say "yes, you can do the surgery", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Maybe this is extreme, but I think you need it to be more explicit before you understand: A child can say to an adult, "yes you can have sex with me", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring.
- drewbug01 4y ago
  > Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. Why not, though? What makes that a red herring?
- engineer_22 4y ago
  drewbug01 Because intersex children are not the subject of the discussion. Please see parent comment for context.
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  Intersex children isn't a "red herring" at all, they fall under the trans umbrella. They're given a binary gender identity at birth, based on genital configuration. If their genitals aren't "standard" innie-or-outie, they are often encouraged to pick an option, and have surgical intervention and potential followup care to raise the child in the parents' "chosen" binary gender, purely because of what's in their pants. Quelle surprise, this often becomes an issue when puberty comes around, and intersex kids find however they've been altered / raised to be, doesn't necessarily match up with themselves. It's VERY relevant. The fact that you don't want to talk about them -- or seemingly trans men or non-binary trans people, since you're only focussing on trans women -- shows you're not being reasonable or intelligent about this.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    Please don't say I'm not being intelligent. That hurts my feelings. :( Like all relationships, a discussion has boundaries. If the parties do not agree on the boundaries, the relationship cannot continue.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      Funny, the personal attacks and deleted comments seem to suggest you don't care about anyone else's feelings... and being demonstrably unintelligent is your choice. If you're hurt, you've been given more than enough material with which to educate yourself. Unsure which "boundaries" you're talking about when it's a public forum and you're still making personal attacks and jibes where you can... if you're going to be dishonest, at least don't be hypocritical at the same time.
- DanBC 4y ago
  We're using the word consent because we're having to use massive simplifications. Bit weird that you're insisting on a US-only framing of concepts of competence, capacity, and consent. > Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. No, it really isn't. You're talking about children not being able to consent, and about rates of regret of transition, and about forcing children onto a medical and surgical pathway of transition. We see all of these in intersex people. You don't want to talk about intersex people because they disprove the points you're making and they highlight the fact that anti-trans campaigners are, simply, against the existence of trans people.
0ct4via 4y ago
Well said. Additional to your point, obviously certain consent is required (in legal and medical frameworks) from parents, or physicians in certain situations -- @engineer_22 doesn't seem to want to acknowledge this, however. Indeed, sadly, parents deciding to force a binary choice on intersex children isn't great, but there is some more progressive work where families are raising their children without being on either side of the binary -- but the medical profession does tend to push for one way or the other when intersex children are born.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  OK, let's all get on the same page about medical consent. https://ndaa.org/wp-content/uploads/Minor-Consent-to-Medical-Treatment-2.pdf https://ndaa.org/wp-content/uploads/Minor-Consent-to-Medical...
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      You're gaslighting me. And I'm starting not to like you.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        You're not using that word properly. The comments are easily readable, and -- unlike you -- I don't delete or edit comments... so if anyone is gaslighting here, it's you. Oh no, a hypocritically hostile bigot on the internet is starting to not like me... whatever will I do?! /s
- engineer_22 4y ago
  Here's the law from Texas. These are the only conditions for which a minor may consent: TEX.FAM.CODE ANN.§32.003(2012).CONSENT TO TREATMENT BY CHILD(a) A child may consent to medical, dental, psychological, and surgical treatment for the child by a licensed physician or dentist if the child:(1) is on active duty with the armed services of the United States of America; 114(2) is: (A) 16 years of age or older and resides separate and apart from the child's parents, managing conservator, or guardian, with or without the consent of the parents, managing conservator, or guardian and regardless of the duration of the residence; and (B) managing the child's own financial affairs, regardless of the source of the income; (3) consents to the diagnosis and treatment of an infectious, contagious, or communicable disease that is required by law or a rule to be reported by the licensed physician or dentist to a local health officer or the Texas Department of Health, including all diseases within the scope of Section 81.041, Health and Safety Code; (4) is unmarried and pregnant and consents to hospital, medical, or surgical treatment, other than abortion, related to the pregnancy; (5) consents to examination and treatment for drug or chemical addiction, drug or chemical dependency, or any other condition directly related to drug or chemical use; (6) is unmarried, is the parent of a child, and has actual custody of his or her child and consents to medical, dental, psychological,or surgical treatment for the child; or (7) is serving a term of confinement in a facility operated by or under contract with the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, unless the treatment would constitute a prohibited practice under Section 164.052(a)(19), Occupations Code. (b) Consent by a child to medical, dental, psychological, and surgical treatment under this section is not subject to disaffirmance because of minority.(c) Consent of the parents, managing conservator, or guardian of a child is not necessary in order to authorize hospital, medical, surgical, or dental care under this section.(d) A licensed physician, dentist, or psychologist may, with or without the consent of a child who is a patient, advise the parents, managing conservator, or guardian of the child of the treatment given to or needed by the child.(e) A physician, dentist, psychologist, hospital, or medical facility is not liable for the examination and treatment of a child under this section except for the provider's or the facility's own acts of negligence. 115(f) A physician, dentist, psychologist, hospital, or medical facility may rely on the written statement of the child containing the grounds on which the child has capacity to consent to the child's medical treatment.

by DanBC 4y ago

But children consent to treatment all the time. If you want to talk about non-consensual treatment you could mention surgery provided to intersex children, but that doesn't fit the narrative.

engineer_22 4y ago

Children do not consent to treatment. Children cannot consent. A child might say "yes, you can do the surgery", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Maybe this is extreme, but I think you need it to be more explicit before you understand: A child can say to an adult, "yes you can have sex with me", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring.

drewbug01 4y ago
> Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. Why not, though? What makes that a red herring?
engineer_22 4y ago
drewbug01 Because intersex children are not the subject of the discussion. Please see parent comment for context.
0ct4via 4y ago
Intersex children isn't a "red herring" at all, they fall under the trans umbrella. They're given a binary gender identity at birth, based on genital configuration. If their genitals aren't "standard" innie-or-outie, they are often encouraged to pick an option, and have surgical intervention and potential followup care to raise the child in the parents' "chosen" binary gender, purely because of what's in their pants. Quelle surprise, this often becomes an issue when puberty comes around, and intersex kids find however they've been altered / raised to be, doesn't necessarily match up with themselves. It's VERY relevant. The fact that you don't want to talk about them -- or seemingly trans men or non-binary trans people, since you're only focussing on trans women -- shows you're not being reasonable or intelligent about this.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  Please don't say I'm not being intelligent. That hurts my feelings. :( Like all relationships, a discussion has boundaries. If the parties do not agree on the boundaries, the relationship cannot continue.
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    Funny, the personal attacks and deleted comments seem to suggest you don't care about anyone else's feelings... and being demonstrably unintelligent is your choice. If you're hurt, you've been given more than enough material with which to educate yourself. Unsure which "boundaries" you're talking about when it's a public forum and you're still making personal attacks and jibes where you can... if you're going to be dishonest, at least don't be hypocritical at the same time.
DanBC 4y ago
We're using the word consent because we're having to use massive simplifications. Bit weird that you're insisting on a US-only framing of concepts of competence, capacity, and consent. > Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. No, it really isn't. You're talking about children not being able to consent, and about rates of regret of transition, and about forcing children onto a medical and surgical pathway of transition. We see all of these in intersex people. You don't want to talk about intersex people because they disprove the points you're making and they highlight the fact that anti-trans campaigners are, simply, against the existence of trans people.

0ct4via 4y ago

Well said. Additional to your point, obviously certain consent is required (in legal and medical frameworks) from parents, or physicians in certain situations -- @engineer_22 doesn't seem to want to acknowledge this, however. Indeed, sadly, parents deciding to force a binary choice on intersex children isn't great, but there is some more progressive work where families are raising their children without being on either side of the binary -- but the medical profession does tend to push for one way or the other when intersex children are born.

engineer_22 4y ago
OK, let's all get on the same page about medical consent. https://ndaa.org/wp-content/uploads/Minor-Consent-to-Medical-Treatment-2.pdf https://ndaa.org/wp-content/uploads/Minor-Consent-to-Medical...
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    You're gaslighting me. And I'm starting not to like you.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      You're not using that word properly. The comments are easily readable, and -- unlike you -- I don't delete or edit comments... so if anyone is gaslighting here, it's you. Oh no, a hypocritically hostile bigot on the internet is starting to not like me... whatever will I do?! /s
engineer_22 4y ago
Here's the law from Texas. These are the only conditions for which a minor may consent: TEX.FAM.CODE ANN.§32.003(2012).CONSENT TO TREATMENT BY CHILD(a) A child may consent to medical, dental, psychological, and surgical treatment for the child by a licensed physician or dentist if the child:(1) is on active duty with the armed services of the United States of America; 114(2) is: (A) 16 years of age or older and resides separate and apart from the child's parents, managing conservator, or guardian, with or without the consent of the parents, managing conservator, or guardian and regardless of the duration of the residence; and (B) managing the child's own financial affairs, regardless of the source of the income; (3) consents to the diagnosis and treatment of an infectious, contagious, or communicable disease that is required by law or a rule to be reported by the licensed physician or dentist to a local health officer or the Texas Department of Health, including all diseases within the scope of Section 81.041, Health and Safety Code; (4) is unmarried and pregnant and consents to hospital, medical, or surgical treatment, other than abortion, related to the pregnancy; (5) consents to examination and treatment for drug or chemical addiction, drug or chemical dependency, or any other condition directly related to drug or chemical use; (6) is unmarried, is the parent of a child, and has actual custody of his or her child and consents to medical, dental, psychological,or surgical treatment for the child; or (7) is serving a term of confinement in a facility operated by or under contract with the Texas Department of Criminal Justice, unless the treatment would constitute a prohibited practice under Section 164.052(a)(19), Occupations Code. (b) Consent by a child to medical, dental, psychological, and surgical treatment under this section is not subject to disaffirmance because of minority.(c) Consent of the parents, managing conservator, or guardian of a child is not necessary in order to authorize hospital, medical, surgical, or dental care under this section.(d) A licensed physician, dentist, or psychologist may, with or without the consent of a child who is a patient, advise the parents, managing conservator, or guardian of the child of the treatment given to or needed by the child.(e) A physician, dentist, psychologist, hospital, or medical facility is not liable for the examination and treatment of a child under this section except for the provider's or the facility's own acts of negligence. 115(f) A physician, dentist, psychologist, hospital, or medical facility may rely on the written statement of the child containing the grounds on which the child has capacity to consent to the child's medical treatment.