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>Even for adults, it doesn't happen without a great deal of psychological analysis, lived experience, multiple concurring psychological reviews, and informed co

>Even for adults, it doesn't happen without a great deal of psychological analysis, lived experience, multiple concurring psychological reviews, and informed consent. To play the devil's advocate: A minor child cannot provide consent, and that's kind of the problem. --------------- Edit: To give the idea a little more flesh: It's the duty of the of the State to represent the well-being of a child, if the children's parents are unable or unwilling to do so. Let's be hypothetical here and imagine a place where a majority of the People of a State believe "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest, then you could have a situation where the State is compelled to do what was done in Texas. Are the majority of people in Texas of the belief that "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Is "gender affirming care", in truth, the best thing for a child? I don't know. I don't know how to even start to approach that question in an acceptable way.

0ct4via 4y ago
What do you achieve by making that argument? I was literally referring to adults and bottom surgery, because *bottom surgery isn't being performed on children*. The problem is that you missed the point entirely.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    Drop the "Skippy" condescension, and read my original comment properly -- I bought up informed consent amount adults, I didn't say anything about children, because children aren't getting bottom surgery -- and for a third time (just so you don't miss it) ... *children aren't getting bottom surgery* :) Your "problem" is a fictitious one. Surgical consent for minors is irrelevant when it comes to transgender healthcare, because nobody is performing trans-related surgeries on minors. That aside, from a legal and medical standpoint, consent works the same way as it does for any surgeries, with legal authority of the parents/guardians, or physician as appropriate. Once again though, since they aren't operating on children in this area, your "problem" is both non-existent, and totally irrelevant.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical intervention is perceived as "reversible". Is the perception verifiable? Edit: Consent is absolutely relevant, because it's the crux of the Governor's announcement in Texas.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        > Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
        0ct4via 4y ago
        I can, but given you've gone off half-cocked making various ridiculous claims, eventually admitting once you were wrong, and making personal attacks and accusations you delete, I'm not sure I should be wasting time trying to educate someone who isn't arguing in good faith or being honest to begin with. "When a person stops taking puberty blockers, their body will resume puberty exactly as it would have had they never taken the medication, says Jennifer Osipoff, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at Stony Brook Children’s Hospital in New York." [1] "There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all." [2] "Puberty's physical changes can cause intense distress for many gender-nonconforming adolescents. When taken regularly, GnRH analogues suppress the body's release of sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen, during puberty. [...] Use of GnRH analogues pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead. If an adolescent child decides to stop taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume and the normal progression of the physical and emotional changes of puberty will continue." [3] "Only reversible treatments to delay puberty are recommended for younger adolescents after they have entered puberty, according to our Clinical Practice Guideline and joint policy perspective issued with the Pediatric Endocrine Society." [4] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-rever... [2] http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-trans... [3] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dyspho... [4] https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/endocrine-society-alarmed-at-criminalization-of-transgender-medicine https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/e... Here's another perspective on some common myths that are quickly and easily debunked: https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-debunked https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans... Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you.
  - DanBC 4y ago
    But children consent to treatment all the time. If you want to talk about non-consensual treatment you could mention surgery provided to intersex children, but that doesn't fit the narrative.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      Children do not consent to treatment. Children cannot consent. A child might say "yes, you can do the surgery", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Maybe this is extreme, but I think you need it to be more explicit before you understand: A child can say to an adult, "yes you can have sex with me", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring.
      - drewbug01 4y ago
        > Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. Why not, though? What makes that a red herring?
      - engineer_22 4y ago
        drewbug01 Because intersex children are not the subject of the discussion. Please see parent comment for context.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        Intersex children isn't a "red herring" at all, they fall under the trans umbrella. They're given a binary gender identity at birth, based on genital configuration. If their genitals aren't "standard" innie-or-outie, they are often encouraged to pick an option, and have surgical intervention and potential followup care to raise the child in the parents' "chosen" binary gender, purely because of what's in their pants. Quelle surprise, this often becomes an issue when puberty comes around, and intersex kids find however they've been altered / raised to be, doesn't necessarily match up with themselves. It's VERY relevant. The fact that you don't want to talk about them -- or seemingly trans men or non-binary trans people, since you're only focussing on trans women -- shows you're not being reasonable or intelligent about this.
divided 4y ago
That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. I believe bottom surgeries are all but unheard of for under 18, but there were 203 top surgeries performed on minors in 2021 (safe to assume vast majority of these were either 16 or 17). In comparison, more than 8,000 minors had breast augmentation in 2019. 4,700 girls had breast reduction surgery in 2010 (apologies, these were the newest numbers I could find, clearly after more than a decade it's reasonable to believe there are more reductions than implants). In 2015, there were 7,021 breast reductions for boys. It seems to me like if the genuine concern was over minors making decisions about their body that aren't reversible, we would be seeing equal and proportional outrage for these other surgeries, right? Edit for your edit :) Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  Good sport. :) >That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. Minor children CANNOT CONSENT. Bottom Line. Minor children cannot consent because they are not given the faculty of consent in common law. A parent's consent is ALWAYS required, and the parent is culpable for that decision. >Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes. Our society is not technocratic. "Right and wrong" are decided by the People. Medical experts are not the arbiters of social acceptability or law.
  - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors legally it's not quite that simple

0ct4via 4y ago

What do you achieve by making that argument? I was literally referring to adults and bottom surgery, because *bottom surgery isn't being performed on children*. The problem is that you missed the point entirely.

engineer_22 4y ago
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  Drop the "Skippy" condescension, and read my original comment properly -- I bought up informed consent amount adults, I didn't say anything about children, because children aren't getting bottom surgery -- and for a third time (just so you don't miss it) ... *children aren't getting bottom surgery* :) Your "problem" is a fictitious one. Surgical consent for minors is irrelevant when it comes to transgender healthcare, because nobody is performing trans-related surgeries on minors. That aside, from a legal and medical standpoint, consent works the same way as it does for any surgeries, with legal authority of the parents/guardians, or physician as appropriate. Once again though, since they aren't operating on children in this area, your "problem" is both non-existent, and totally irrelevant.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical intervention is perceived as "reversible". Is the perception verifiable? Edit: Consent is absolutely relevant, because it's the crux of the Governor's announcement in Texas.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.
      - engineer_22 4y ago
        > Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
        0ct4via 4y ago
        I can, but given you've gone off half-cocked making various ridiculous claims, eventually admitting once you were wrong, and making personal attacks and accusations you delete, I'm not sure I should be wasting time trying to educate someone who isn't arguing in good faith or being honest to begin with. "When a person stops taking puberty blockers, their body will resume puberty exactly as it would have had they never taken the medication, says Jennifer Osipoff, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at Stony Brook Children’s Hospital in New York." [1] "There are no known irreversible effects of puberty blockers. If you decide to stop taking them, your body will go through puberty just the way it would have if you had not taken puberty blockers at all." [2] "Puberty's physical changes can cause intense distress for many gender-nonconforming adolescents. When taken regularly, GnRH analogues suppress the body's release of sex hormones, including testosterone and estrogen, during puberty. [...] Use of GnRH analogues pauses puberty, providing time to determine if a child's gender identity is long lasting. It also gives children and their families time to think about or plan for the psychological, medical, developmental, social and legal issues ahead. If an adolescent child decides to stop taking GnRH analogues, puberty will resume and the normal progression of the physical and emotional changes of puberty will continue." [3] "Only reversible treatments to delay puberty are recommended for younger adolescents after they have entered puberty, according to our Clinical Practice Guideline and joint policy perspective issued with the Pediatric Endocrine Society." [4] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-rever... [2] http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-transition/medical-affirmation-transition/puberty-blockers-for-youth http://www.phsa.ca/transcarebc/child-youth/affirmation-trans... [3] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dyspho... [4] https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/endocrine-society-alarmed-at-criminalization-of-transgender-medicine https://www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2022/e... Here's another perspective on some common myths that are quickly and easily debunked: https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans-kids-debunked https://www.fatherly.com/health/myths-puberty-blockers-trans... Next time try not making baseless claims and assumptions in the first place, then expecting other people to do your research for you.
- DanBC 4y ago
  But children consent to treatment all the time. If you want to talk about non-consensual treatment you could mention surgery provided to intersex children, but that doesn't fit the narrative.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    Children do not consent to treatment. Children cannot consent. A child might say "yes, you can do the surgery", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Maybe this is extreme, but I think you need it to be more explicit before you understand: A child can say to an adult, "yes you can have sex with me", but that is not consent because a child cannot consent. Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring.
    - drewbug01 4y ago
      > Edit: I dont want to talk about intersex children. That's a red herring. Why not, though? What makes that a red herring?
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      drewbug01 Because intersex children are not the subject of the discussion. Please see parent comment for context.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      Intersex children isn't a "red herring" at all, they fall under the trans umbrella. They're given a binary gender identity at birth, based on genital configuration. If their genitals aren't "standard" innie-or-outie, they are often encouraged to pick an option, and have surgical intervention and potential followup care to raise the child in the parents' "chosen" binary gender, purely because of what's in their pants. Quelle surprise, this often becomes an issue when puberty comes around, and intersex kids find however they've been altered / raised to be, doesn't necessarily match up with themselves. It's VERY relevant. The fact that you don't want to talk about them -- or seemingly trans men or non-binary trans people, since you're only focussing on trans women -- shows you're not being reasonable or intelligent about this.

divided 4y ago

That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. I believe bottom surgeries are all but unheard of for under 18, but there were 203 top surgeries performed on minors in 2021 (safe to assume vast majority of these were either 16 or 17). In comparison, more than 8,000 minors had breast augmentation in 2019. 4,700 girls had breast reduction surgery in 2010 (apologies, these were the newest numbers I could find, clearly after more than a decade it's reasonable to believe there are more reductions than implants). In 2015, there were 7,021 breast reductions for boys. It seems to me like if the genuine concern was over minors making decisions about their body that aren't reversible, we would be seeing equal and proportional outrage for these other surgeries, right? Edit for your edit :) Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes.

engineer_22 4y ago
Good sport. :) >That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. Minor children CANNOT CONSENT. Bottom Line. Minor children cannot consent because they are not given the faculty of consent in common law. A parent's consent is ALWAYS required, and the parent is culpable for that decision. >Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes. Our society is not technocratic. "Right and wrong" are decided by the People. Medical experts are not the arbiters of social acceptability or law.
- dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors legally it's not quite that simple