4 ms·

That's interesting. How do we define "Happy"? Data in another study [1] shows that 50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reporte

That's interesting. How do we define "Happy"? Data in another study [1] shows that 50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months, and 37% have reported severe psychological distress in the past month. The same study later concludes that "This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." (!) [1] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?

0ct4via 4y ago
"50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months" Have you considered whether that's prior to treatment, or early on, when the treatment had only just begun? It's relevant to know that trans people often have depression and suicidality-related comorbidities, commonly caused by their inability to transition, or access treatments that will help them do so. The study you linked also said, "those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation" I'd say being less suicidal is a definition of happy, never mind the evidence of pretty much any trans person saying how literally life-changing access to HRT and affirming medical care has been for them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- engineer_22 4y ago
  OK, let's go by your definition: "being less suicidal is a definition of happy" Preface: I believe gender dysphoria is real suffering. From the paper: [1] Have You Ever Had [Pubertal Suppression] for Your Gender Identity or Gender Transition? Yes, n=89, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 45 (50.6%) No, n=3405, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 2204 (64.8%) The paper [1] concludes "Among transgender adults in the United States who have wanted pubertal suppression, access to this treatment is associated with lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation. This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." I think the only conclusion we can make, is that we have some sick puppies on our hands, and they need our love and compassion. I do not the data gives us cause for celebration. I do not think the data makes a strong connection between hormonal treatment of children and long-term positive outcomes. I understand there is a chicken and egg problem here. [1]https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    You can't talk about love and compassion when you refer to other human beings as "sick puppies." You're missing the point entirely, and you're /not engaging in good faith/.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      "sick puppies" is a colloquialism. Sorry about that, not being disingenuous.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        I'm aware it is a colloquialism -- could you at least try not being so condescending? You're absolutely being disingenuous, and the comment was derogatory and inappropriate regardless of how colloquial you may choose to see it as.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        Is there no room for levity?
        0ct4via 4y ago
        Is there no room for referring to trans children with a modicum of respect? "Sick puppies" is condescension and mockery, not levity -- but as you continue to not engage in good faith, it seems you're clearly aware of that. The fact that you are unwilling or unable to engage with serious discussions with even basic respect shows how disingenuous you are. So no, when it comes to children's lives, there is no "levity" when it comes to referring to them as "sick puppies." Grow up.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        I've read your comment history. Many of your interlocutors have expressed exasperation when trying to engage with you. Please count me among them.
DanBC 4y ago
The conclusion of the paper that you've misunderstood and are misrepresenting: "This is the first study in which associations between access to pubertal suppression and suicidality are examined. There is a significant inverse association between treatment with pubertal suppression during adolescence and lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment. These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes."
- engineer_22 4y ago
  I did not misunderstand the conclusion of the paper. The paper was cited because it has data about objective reports of well being. The parent cited a report that claims 98% of people are "happy" after receiving hormonal treatment. I thought it was an interesting claim, and someone might have a reason to be very encouraged by that. Another paper that I cited has data that shows that large percentages of people who have had hormonal treatment are experiencing psychological suffering. It also shows that large percentages of people who have NOT had hormonal treatment are experiencing psychological suffering. I'm not making any conclusions. I'm just bringing some data.
jl6 4y ago
The abstract doesn't use the word happy. It says "(98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up." Perhaps they continued to hormone treatment because they were happy, or perhaps they continued because they had been set on a social and clinical pathway with no off-ramp.

0ct4via 4y ago

"50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months" Have you considered whether that's prior to treatment, or early on, when the treatment had only just begun? It's relevant to know that trans people often have depression and suicidality-related comorbidities, commonly caused by their inability to transition, or access treatments that will help them do so. The study you linked also said, "those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation" I'd say being less suicidal is a definition of happy, never mind the evidence of pretty much any trans person saying how literally life-changing access to HRT and affirming medical care has been for them.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
engineer_22 4y ago
OK, let's go by your definition: "being less suicidal is a definition of happy" Preface: I believe gender dysphoria is real suffering. From the paper: [1] Have You Ever Had [Pubertal Suppression] for Your Gender Identity or Gender Transition? Yes, n=89, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 45 (50.6%) No, n=3405, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 2204 (64.8%) The paper [1] concludes "Among transgender adults in the United States who have wanted pubertal suppression, access to this treatment is associated with lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation. This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." I think the only conclusion we can make, is that we have some sick puppies on our hands, and they need our love and compassion. I do not the data gives us cause for celebration. I do not think the data makes a strong connection between hormonal treatment of children and long-term positive outcomes. I understand there is a chicken and egg problem here. [1]https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  You can't talk about love and compassion when you refer to other human beings as "sick puppies." You're missing the point entirely, and you're /not engaging in good faith/.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    "sick puppies" is a colloquialism. Sorry about that, not being disingenuous.
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      I'm aware it is a colloquialism -- could you at least try not being so condescending? You're absolutely being disingenuous, and the comment was derogatory and inappropriate regardless of how colloquial you may choose to see it as.
      - engineer_22 4y ago
        Is there no room for levity?
        0ct4via 4y ago
        Is there no room for referring to trans children with a modicum of respect? "Sick puppies" is condescension and mockery, not levity -- but as you continue to not engage in good faith, it seems you're clearly aware of that. The fact that you are unwilling or unable to engage with serious discussions with even basic respect shows how disingenuous you are. So no, when it comes to children's lives, there is no "levity" when it comes to referring to them as "sick puppies." Grow up.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        I've read your comment history. Many of your interlocutors have expressed exasperation when trying to engage with you. Please count me among them.

DanBC 4y ago

The conclusion of the paper that you've misunderstood and are misrepresenting: "This is the first study in which associations between access to pubertal suppression and suicidality are examined. There is a significant inverse association between treatment with pubertal suppression during adolescence and lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment. These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes."

engineer_22 4y ago
I did not misunderstand the conclusion of the paper. The paper was cited because it has data about objective reports of well being. The parent cited a report that claims 98% of people are "happy" after receiving hormonal treatment. I thought it was an interesting claim, and someone might have a reason to be very encouraged by that. Another paper that I cited has data that shows that large percentages of people who have had hormonal treatment are experiencing psychological suffering. It also shows that large percentages of people who have NOT had hormonal treatment are experiencing psychological suffering. I'm not making any conclusions. I'm just bringing some data.

jl6 4y ago

The abstract doesn't use the word happy. It says "(98%) people who had started gender-affirming medical treatment in adolescence continued to use gender-affirming hormones at follow-up." Perhaps they continued to hormone treatment because they were happy, or perhaps they continued because they had been set on a social and clinical pathway with no off-ramp.