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To add to the comment by Oct4via, if you're worried about younger people putting off puberty so that they can make the choice as an adult, hopefully you'll be c

To add to the comment by Oct4via, if you're worried about younger people putting off puberty so that they can make the choice as an adult, hopefully you'll be cheered by the finding that 98% are happy, when they reach adulthood, they made the right choice and go on to take hormones for the gender they identify as: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(22)00254-1/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...

TeeMassive 4y ago
This study is often cited in the trans activists online communities but it has been debunked. If 98% sounds too good to be true (breast augmentation doesn't even get that) then it's because it is. Read the abstract. The "included" the people they wanted to include, not at random, not compared to other groups who chose not to go through the procedure. Considering that these researchers receive funding for their chair from a growing multi-billion industry this is even more reasons to be skeptical of the way they "included" their sample. And that's not even addressing that they did not check if they were "happy", only that they continued to take hormone therapy when they were about 20, that's way too early in adulthood considering that the pre-frontal cortex finishes developing in the late 20s. And the there's the sunk-cost fallacy that of people not admitting of making a bad and irreversible decision. And researchers in academia are afraid of opposing the trans actvists.
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  Firstly, why would the relevance of those who don't wish to have a procedure, be relevant to the happiness of those who undergo it? -- that makes the non-op group as irrelevant as J Random Person in the street, and it falls outside the focus of the study. Secondly, plenty research is funded by "multi-billion industry," or government, or defence. What's your point? You're just finger-pointing without evidence of reason to be "skeptical." Given how unhappy trans people can be prior to transitioning, if someone did somehow go through the significant hoops needed to transition, and eventually feel the need to destransition -- which is exceedingly rare -- they detransition, they don't just live miserably and accept a "sunk-cost fallacy." That's ridiculous. As for the hand wavy "the trans activists" boogeyman, please cite sources of researchers in academia being "afraid of opposing" them -- and evidence of who "the trans activists" you're referring to, actually are. The only issue in academia is so-called "gender critical" academics invalidating the existence of trans people, often violating academic policy in refusing to respect their existence, then shouting loudly when they get called out on it. Nobody is refusing to research or publish because of fear of "opposing the trans activists" at all -- there isn't some cabal of trans people trying to silence academia, that's ridiculous, and flies in the face of what academia is all about.
  - TeeMassive 4y ago
    > why would the relevance of those who don't wish to have a procedure, be relevant to the happiness of those who undergo it? I was about to write a whole paragraph about control groups but you can do it by yourself: https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group In particular: "It is important that every aspect of the experimental environment be as alike as possible for all subjects in the experiment. If conditions are different for the experimental and control groups, it is impossible to know whether differences between groups are actually due to the difference in treatments or to the difference in environment." > Secondly, plenty research is funded by "multi-billion industry," or government, or defense. Yes and it has created the "publish or perish" culture which then caused the reproducibility crisis. But that's not the issue here. The real issue is when the funders have a vested financial (and political) interest in one result over the other. The pharmaceutical industry is getting successfully sued years after years for billions of dollars over this kind of stuff. Conflict of interest is a real concern for scientific studies especially in the non-exact sciences. > Given how unhappy trans people can be prior to transitioning, if someone did somehow go through the significant hoops needed to transition, and eventually feel the need to detransition -- which is exceedingly rare -- they detransition, they don't just live miserably and accept a "sunk-cost fallacy." That's ridiculous. "If X then surely Y"... You make a lot of statements without backing it up. AFAIK there are no proper studies that has been done on a significant long term lowering of suicide-rates after medical transitioning before adulthood. And you mix up de-transitioning (which is actually impossible to achieve considering the irreversible effects) with the comparison of not transitioning because study (and others) didn't have a control group. > As for the hand wavy "the trans activists" boogeyman, please cite sources of researchers in academia being "afraid of opposing" them -- and evidence of who "the trans activists" you're referring to, actually are. It's not "hand waving". There are many examples of when researcher's results portray medical transitioning as a net negative then they face backlash, forced retraction and loss of funding or face character assassination from news articles and social media. https://4thwavenow.com/tag/petition-plos-one-brown-university/ https://4thwavenow.com/tag/petition-plos-one-brown-universit... https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2021/01/21/oxford-union-criticised-for-invitation-of-debra-soh/ https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2021/01/21/oxford-union-critic... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7683207/Researcher-lost-job-transphobic-comments-expected-say-men-women.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7683207/Researcher-... And if you've been around academia in the recent years then you know this is the case. Being on the bad side of the trans-activists means no funding, no chair and worse. > The only issue in academia is so-called "gender critical" academics invalidating the existence of trans people, often violating academic policy in refusing to respect their existence, You prove my previous point... They are "an issue" to be skeptical of gender theory and its applications. If they do not agree, they are "invalidating their existence". > then shouting loudly when they get called out on it. You mean like this: https://youtu.be/vMSmUzDt-7U https://youtu.be/vMSmUzDt-7U > Nobody is refusing to research or publish because of fear Fear is a strong force when the threat is obviously real. Notice how you have to claim that the suppression of academics doesn't exist because you know it's wrong and then flag them as "an issue" and "denying of their existence" by "violating academic policy" at the same time. > there isn't some cabal of trans people trying to silence academia If I showed you cabals of people chasing down professors off campus for their views regarding gender would you change your mind?
engineer_22 4y ago
That's interesting. How do we define "Happy"? Data in another study [1] shows that 50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months, and 37% have reported severe psychological distress in the past month. The same study later concludes that "This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." (!) [1] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  "50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months" Have you considered whether that's prior to treatment, or early on, when the treatment had only just begun? It's relevant to know that trans people often have depression and suicidality-related comorbidities, commonly caused by their inability to transition, or access treatments that will help them do so. The study you linked also said, "those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation" I'd say being less suicidal is a definition of happy, never mind the evidence of pretty much any trans person saying how literally life-changing access to HRT and affirming medical care has been for them.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    OK, let's go by your definition: "being less suicidal is a definition of happy" Preface: I believe gender dysphoria is real suffering. From the paper: [1] Have You Ever Had [Pubertal Suppression] for Your Gender Identity or Gender Transition? Yes, n=89, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 45 (50.6%) No, n=3405, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 2204 (64.8%) The paper [1] concludes "Among transgender adults in the United States who have wanted pubertal suppression, access to this treatment is associated with lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation. This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." I think the only conclusion we can make, is that we have some sick puppies on our hands, and they need our love and compassion. I do not the data gives us cause for celebration. I do not think the data makes a strong connection between hormonal treatment of children and long-term positive outcomes. I understand there is a chicken and egg problem here. [1]https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?

TeeMassive 4y ago

This study is often cited in the trans activists online communities but it has been debunked. If 98% sounds too good to be true (breast augmentation doesn't even get that) then it's because it is. Read the abstract. The "included" the people they wanted to include, not at random, not compared to other groups who chose not to go through the procedure. Considering that these researchers receive funding for their chair from a growing multi-billion industry this is even more reasons to be skeptical of the way they "included" their sample. And that's not even addressing that they did not check if they were "happy", only that they continued to take hormone therapy when they were about 20, that's way too early in adulthood considering that the pre-frontal cortex finishes developing in the late 20s. And the there's the sunk-cost fallacy that of people not admitting of making a bad and irreversible decision. And researchers in academia are afraid of opposing the trans actvists.

0ct4via 4y ago
Firstly, why would the relevance of those who don't wish to have a procedure, be relevant to the happiness of those who undergo it? -- that makes the non-op group as irrelevant as J Random Person in the street, and it falls outside the focus of the study. Secondly, plenty research is funded by "multi-billion industry," or government, or defence. What's your point? You're just finger-pointing without evidence of reason to be "skeptical." Given how unhappy trans people can be prior to transitioning, if someone did somehow go through the significant hoops needed to transition, and eventually feel the need to destransition -- which is exceedingly rare -- they detransition, they don't just live miserably and accept a "sunk-cost fallacy." That's ridiculous. As for the hand wavy "the trans activists" boogeyman, please cite sources of researchers in academia being "afraid of opposing" them -- and evidence of who "the trans activists" you're referring to, actually are. The only issue in academia is so-called "gender critical" academics invalidating the existence of trans people, often violating academic policy in refusing to respect their existence, then shouting loudly when they get called out on it. Nobody is refusing to research or publish because of fear of "opposing the trans activists" at all -- there isn't some cabal of trans people trying to silence academia, that's ridiculous, and flies in the face of what academia is all about.
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  > why would the relevance of those who don't wish to have a procedure, be relevant to the happiness of those who undergo it? I was about to write a whole paragraph about control groups but you can do it by yourself: https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group https://www.britannica.com/science/control-group In particular: "It is important that every aspect of the experimental environment be as alike as possible for all subjects in the experiment. If conditions are different for the experimental and control groups, it is impossible to know whether differences between groups are actually due to the difference in treatments or to the difference in environment." > Secondly, plenty research is funded by "multi-billion industry," or government, or defense. Yes and it has created the "publish or perish" culture which then caused the reproducibility crisis. But that's not the issue here. The real issue is when the funders have a vested financial (and political) interest in one result over the other. The pharmaceutical industry is getting successfully sued years after years for billions of dollars over this kind of stuff. Conflict of interest is a real concern for scientific studies especially in the non-exact sciences. > Given how unhappy trans people can be prior to transitioning, if someone did somehow go through the significant hoops needed to transition, and eventually feel the need to detransition -- which is exceedingly rare -- they detransition, they don't just live miserably and accept a "sunk-cost fallacy." That's ridiculous. "If X then surely Y"... You make a lot of statements without backing it up. AFAIK there are no proper studies that has been done on a significant long term lowering of suicide-rates after medical transitioning before adulthood. And you mix up de-transitioning (which is actually impossible to achieve considering the irreversible effects) with the comparison of not transitioning because study (and others) didn't have a control group. > As for the hand wavy "the trans activists" boogeyman, please cite sources of researchers in academia being "afraid of opposing" them -- and evidence of who "the trans activists" you're referring to, actually are. It's not "hand waving". There are many examples of when researcher's results portray medical transitioning as a net negative then they face backlash, forced retraction and loss of funding or face character assassination from news articles and social media. https://4thwavenow.com/tag/petition-plos-one-brown-university/ https://4thwavenow.com/tag/petition-plos-one-brown-universit... https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2021/01/21/oxford-union-criticised-for-invitation-of-debra-soh/ https://www.oxfordstudent.com/2021/01/21/oxford-union-critic... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7683207/Researcher-lost-job-transphobic-comments-expected-say-men-women.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7683207/Researcher-... And if you've been around academia in the recent years then you know this is the case. Being on the bad side of the trans-activists means no funding, no chair and worse. > The only issue in academia is so-called "gender critical" academics invalidating the existence of trans people, often violating academic policy in refusing to respect their existence, You prove my previous point... They are "an issue" to be skeptical of gender theory and its applications. If they do not agree, they are "invalidating their existence". > then shouting loudly when they get called out on it. You mean like this: https://youtu.be/vMSmUzDt-7U https://youtu.be/vMSmUzDt-7U > Nobody is refusing to research or publish because of fear Fear is a strong force when the threat is obviously real. Notice how you have to claim that the suppression of academics doesn't exist because you know it's wrong and then flag them as "an issue" and "denying of their existence" by "violating academic policy" at the same time. > there isn't some cabal of trans people trying to silence academia If I showed you cabals of people chasing down professors off campus for their views regarding gender would you change your mind?

engineer_22 4y ago

That's interesting. How do we define "Happy"? Data in another study [1] shows that 50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months, and 37% have reported severe psychological distress in the past month. The same study later concludes that "This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." (!) [1] https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?

0ct4via 4y ago
"50.5% percent of patients who have been treated with these hormones reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months" Have you considered whether that's prior to treatment, or early on, when the treatment had only just begun? It's relevant to know that trans people often have depression and suicidality-related comorbidities, commonly caused by their inability to transition, or access treatments that will help them do so. The study you linked also said, "those who received treatment with pubertal suppression, when compared with those who wanted pubertal suppression but did not receive it, had lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation" I'd say being less suicidal is a definition of happy, never mind the evidence of pretty much any trans person saying how literally life-changing access to HRT and affirming medical care has been for them.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- engineer_22 4y ago
  OK, let's go by your definition: "being less suicidal is a definition of happy" Preface: I believe gender dysphoria is real suffering. From the paper: [1] Have You Ever Had [Pubertal Suppression] for Your Gender Identity or Gender Transition? Yes, n=89, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 45 (50.6%) No, n=3405, of which reported suicidal ideation in the last 12 months: 2204 (64.8%) The paper [1] concludes "Among transgender adults in the United States who have wanted pubertal suppression, access to this treatment is associated with lower odds of lifetime suicidal ideation. This study strengthens recommendations by the Endocrine Society and WPATH for this treatment to be made available for transgender adolescents who want it." I think the only conclusion we can make, is that we have some sick puppies on our hands, and they need our love and compassion. I do not the data gives us cause for celebration. I do not think the data makes a strong connection between hormonal treatment of children and long-term positive outcomes. I understand there is a chicken and egg problem here. [1]https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191725/68259/Pubertal-Suppression-for-Transgender-Youth-and https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/145/2/e20191...?