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[flagged]

splistud 4y ago
fruit2020 4y ago
engineer_22 4y ago
>Even for adults, it doesn't happen without a great deal of psychological analysis, lived experience, multiple concurring psychological reviews, and informed consent. To play the devil's advocate: A minor child cannot provide consent, and that's kind of the problem. --------------- Edit: To give the idea a little more flesh: It's the duty of the of the State to represent the well-being of a child, if the children's parents are unable or unwilling to do so. Let's be hypothetical here and imagine a place where a majority of the People of a State believe "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest, then you could have a situation where the State is compelled to do what was done in Texas. Are the majority of people in Texas of the belief that "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Is "gender affirming care", in truth, the best thing for a child? I don't know. I don't know how to even start to approach that question in an acceptable way.
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  What do you achieve by making that argument? I was literally referring to adults and bottom surgery, because *bottom surgery isn't being performed on children*. The problem is that you missed the point entirely.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    - 0ct4via 4y ago
      Drop the "Skippy" condescension, and read my original comment properly -- I bought up informed consent amount adults, I didn't say anything about children, because children aren't getting bottom surgery -- and for a third time (just so you don't miss it) ... *children aren't getting bottom surgery* :) Your "problem" is a fictitious one. Surgical consent for minors is irrelevant when it comes to transgender healthcare, because nobody is performing trans-related surgeries on minors. That aside, from a legal and medical standpoint, consent works the same way as it does for any surgeries, with legal authority of the parents/guardians, or physician as appropriate. Once again though, since they aren't operating on children in this area, your "problem" is both non-existent, and totally irrelevant.
      - engineer_22 4y ago
        Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical intervention is perceived as "reversible". Is the perception verifiable? Edit: Consent is absolutely relevant, because it's the crux of the Governor's announcement in Texas.
        0ct4via 4y ago
        Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        > Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
        4y ago
- divided 4y ago
  That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. I believe bottom surgeries are all but unheard of for under 18, but there were 203 top surgeries performed on minors in 2021 (safe to assume vast majority of these were either 16 or 17). In comparison, more than 8,000 minors had breast augmentation in 2019. 4,700 girls had breast reduction surgery in 2010 (apologies, these were the newest numbers I could find, clearly after more than a decade it's reasonable to believe there are more reductions than implants). In 2015, there were 7,021 breast reductions for boys. It seems to me like if the genuine concern was over minors making decisions about their body that aren't reversible, we would be seeing equal and proportional outrage for these other surgeries, right? Edit for your edit :) Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    Good sport. :) >That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. Minor children CANNOT CONSENT. Bottom Line. Minor children cannot consent because they are not given the faculty of consent in common law. A parent's consent is ALWAYS required, and the parent is culpable for that decision. >Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes. Our society is not technocratic. "Right and wrong" are decided by the People. Medical experts are not the arbiters of social acceptability or law.
    - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors legally it's not quite that simple
throwawayacc4 4y ago
- dang 4y ago
  You can't do this here and we've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[flagged]

fruit2020 4y ago

>Even for adults, it doesn't happen without a great deal of psychological analysis, lived experience, multiple concurring psychological reviews, and informed consent. To play the devil's advocate: A minor child cannot provide consent, and that's kind of the problem. --------------- Edit: To give the idea a little more flesh: It's the duty of the of the State to represent the well-being of a child, if the children's parents are unable or unwilling to do so. Let's be hypothetical here and imagine a place where a majority of the People of a State believe "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest, then you could have a situation where the State is compelled to do what was done in Texas. Are the majority of people in Texas of the belief that "gender affirming care" is not in a child's best interest? I don't know, but it seems plausible. Is "gender affirming care", in truth, the best thing for a child? I don't know. I don't know how to even start to approach that question in an acceptable way.

0ct4via 4y ago
What do you achieve by making that argument? I was literally referring to adults and bottom surgery, because *bottom surgery isn't being performed on children*. The problem is that you missed the point entirely.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  - 0ct4via 4y ago
    Drop the "Skippy" condescension, and read my original comment properly -- I bought up informed consent amount adults, I didn't say anything about children, because children aren't getting bottom surgery -- and for a third time (just so you don't miss it) ... *children aren't getting bottom surgery* :) Your "problem" is a fictitious one. Surgical consent for minors is irrelevant when it comes to transgender healthcare, because nobody is performing trans-related surgeries on minors. That aside, from a legal and medical standpoint, consent works the same way as it does for any surgeries, with legal authority of the parents/guardians, or physician as appropriate. Once again though, since they aren't operating on children in this area, your "problem" is both non-existent, and totally irrelevant.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      Chemical intervention causes changes to the body. Surgery causes changes to the body. Why should they be treated differently? Is it because chemical intervention is perceived as "reversible". Is the perception verifiable? Edit: Consent is absolutely relevant, because it's the crux of the Governor's announcement in Texas.
      - 0ct4via 4y ago
        Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. Once again (I believe this is the fourth time you're having to be told this), NOBODY is performing trans-related surgeries on children. Puberty blockers aren't issued without medical supervision or parental consent either, but keep making false arguments.
        engineer_22 4y ago
        > Actually, not perceived. Temporary blocking doesn't change anything -- it /postpones/ actual changes by puberty. I wasn't aware of that. Can you provide a citation?
        4y ago
divided 4y ago
That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. I believe bottom surgeries are all but unheard of for under 18, but there were 203 top surgeries performed on minors in 2021 (safe to assume vast majority of these were either 16 or 17). In comparison, more than 8,000 minors had breast augmentation in 2019. 4,700 girls had breast reduction surgery in 2010 (apologies, these were the newest numbers I could find, clearly after more than a decade it's reasonable to believe there are more reductions than implants). In 2015, there were 7,021 breast reductions for boys. It seems to me like if the genuine concern was over minors making decisions about their body that aren't reversible, we would be seeing equal and proportional outrage for these other surgeries, right? Edit for your edit :) Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes.
- engineer_22 4y ago
  Good sport. :) >That's a good devil's advocate, but it's worth pointing out minor children consent (with parental consent, too) to surgeries all the time. Whether that's cancer treatments, surgeries to repair bone fractures, plastic surgeries, etc. Minor children CANNOT CONSENT. Bottom Line. Minor children cannot consent because they are not given the faculty of consent in common law. A parent's consent is ALWAYS required, and the parent is culpable for that decision. >Gender affirming care appears to be what's best for kids according to the majority of research and the major medical associations in the US. The experts certainly could be wrong, but generally speaking I prefer having doctors treating me in a hospital and pilots flying my planes. Our society is not technocratic. "Right and wrong" are decided by the People. Medical experts are not the arbiters of social acceptability or law.
  - dinosaurdynasty 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emancipation_of_minors legally it's not quite that simple

throwawayacc4 4y ago

dang 4y ago
You can't do this here and we've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html