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And yet we allow extravagant malls all over France to light and heat 24/7 with open doors and no accountability. All streets are filled with large high-definit

And yet we allow extravagant malls all over France to light and heat 24/7 with open doors and no accountability. All streets are filled with large high-definition ad screens & computers that cool and heat all day long. Restaurants and bars can just heat the outside terrace air, etc... And the liberal take has been: This is fine as long as they're paying their bills.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago
I have no idea of what you are talking about. Blackouts are a solution to consumption surges. We are not seeing surges right now so there is no reason to restrict anyone. We can’t store electricity after all. In case of a surge, the commercial sector is the first being hit, long before houses. Plus the issue is mostly heating, lights consume next to nothing. France electricity is mostly clean by the way. > Restaurants and bars can just heat the outside terrace air. etc... That’s been illegal for more than a year.
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  France's energy production is not as clean as one may think. There is considerable damage to the environment in countries in Africa, where Uranium is mined/extracted. Probably still better than lots of CO2 output, but not actually clean.
  - pitaj 4y ago
    > There is considerable damage to the environment in countries in Africa, where Uranium is mined/extracted. That's equally of not more true of renewables like solar and batteries that require large amounts of rare metals.
    - zelphirkalt 4y ago
      Doesn't change the fact, that it is not actually clean, does it?
  - yodsanklai 4y ago
    No energy production is clean. Actually, I'd be curious to compare the damage to the environment caused by uranium extraction vs producing batteries and solar panels.
    - guggle 4y ago
      Indeed, there is no clean energy, it's all relative. I'd like more people to realize this.
    - kergonath 4y ago
      Nuclear and solar panels are about the same. Better than wind and hydro. But all of these are very similar, and are miles better than fossil fuels. It’s difficult to have accurate projections for batteries because the technology that can be used at these scales is not clear (though he vast majority of them need cobalt, which is a huge issue on several levels).
  - loeg 4y ago
    Most uranium comes from Kazakhstan. Australia and Canada are also major producers. Namibia produces some, but far from the majority. This isn't exactly a "western countries dumping environmental problems in Africa" story.
    - zelphirkalt 4y ago
      So is the Uranium extraction story better in those countries? I think that would then be the next question.
      - loeg 4y ago
        I don't think it's particularly bad per GWh of energy produced. You just don't need that much uranium. Compare coal (still being actively mined and burned for energy!), natural gas, exotics for batteries/solar.
      - tomatotomato37 4y ago
        In Australia at least most of it comes from a copper mine that happens to intersect a uranium vein, so as long as the demand for copper exists its extraction is essentially environmentally free
        TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        Olympic Dan is the fourth largest copper deposit and the largest known single deposit of uranium in the world.
    - rockinghigh 4y ago
      The uranium used in France comes in part from Niger. The mines in Niger are operated by Orano, a mining company whose main shareholder is also France. There have been controversies about France using foreign aid to pressure the Niger government for more favorable mining contracts.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    Any source at all? (Good luck finding one that supports your position). FWIW: yes, mining is bad. But uranium is unbelievably energy-dense and the amounts are ridiculously small compared to any other source of energy. All things considered, nuclear causes fewer emissions per MWh than most solar panels (which are not radioactive but still need heaps of metals and semiconductors). Also, there is no contest with coal, oil, and gas, which is the thing that is actually used when you don’t have nuclear energy available.
    - mensetmanusman 4y ago
      Mining can be done poorly, it isn’t bad, everything rigid we have comes from mining of some form.
    - zelphirkalt 4y ago
      https://invidio.xamh.de/watch?v=ioRtzOWm07A https://invidio.xamh.de/watch?v=ioRtzOWm07A Here you go. But really, if you had done a simple search of something like "france uranium africa" you would likely have found this yourself. If you only ever search for things supporting your position, but not the opposite position, you are prone to being in a bubble, never seeing contradicting information.
      - shashasha2 4y ago
        Greenpeace documentary
- Raed667 4y ago
  > the commercial sector is the first being it That's not what they announced, the day before an area code will be revealed, and all electricity will be cut (including schools, public utility and telephone towers) > That’s been illegal for more than a year There is an exception if terrace area is "covered". Guess what everyone installed in the past year?
  - WastingMyTime89 4y ago
    What they announced is in addition to what’s always done. The commercial sector has always been the first to be cut. Some companies actually have special contracts which mean they can be cut with barely any notice. If they do large scale blackouts it’s that they can’t manage the load without cutting normal customers so obviously it’s going to hit everyone.
zelphirkalt 4y ago
Same stuff in Germany. We ask households to save energy, but at the same time store windows and malls and whatnot are lit up all night long. Maybe it needs a separate higher energy price for businesses to change that behavior.
- bushbaba 4y ago
  In the US industrial & large electric consumers often pay a cheaper $/Kwh price. But they also have additional peak demand surcharges.
- oezi 4y ago
  I can talk only about Berlin but many furniture stores have started to switch all lights off at night. Even the Ikea sign isn't lit anymore.
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    I guess the take on that is, that there is no good regulation for it. If it can be one way in one city, for some of the shops, and different for other cities or other shops, then the measures/policies are not really reaching the target. Apparently one cannot rely on people doing the right thing, especially not, when they are in some kind of loosely associated group like a business, where no one feels responsible at the end. It might be a topic which needs intervention by the state to get the desired effect.
- morelisp 4y ago
  While I'm sure there's a ton of possible places for commercial use to optimize that aren't being done yet, stores leaving signs on all night was banned by the EnSikuMaV back in August.
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    They should come to my city then and start fining businesses for violating that.
323 4y ago
If malls waste it like that it means that the electricity is too cheap and still plenty. I bet that a lot of it it's subsidized in good old French tradition.
f6v 4y ago
Same in Denmark. A shitload of storefronts lit up at night.
sofixa 4y ago
What are you talking about? Did you forget to update your talking points when everything you're complaining about changed? Stores, including malls, are mandated to shut down lights and screens after hours. Christmas lights and the Eiffel tower shut down at 22:00. Restaurants and bars have been forbidden from heating up terraces for more than a year.

WastingMyTime89 4y ago

I have no idea of what you are talking about. Blackouts are a solution to consumption surges. We are not seeing surges right now so there is no reason to restrict anyone. We can’t store electricity after all. In case of a surge, the commercial sector is the first being hit, long before houses. Plus the issue is mostly heating, lights consume next to nothing. France electricity is mostly clean by the way. > Restaurants and bars can just heat the outside terrace air. etc... That’s been illegal for more than a year.

zelphirkalt 4y ago
France's energy production is not as clean as one may think. There is considerable damage to the environment in countries in Africa, where Uranium is mined/extracted. Probably still better than lots of CO2 output, but not actually clean.
- pitaj 4y ago
  > There is considerable damage to the environment in countries in Africa, where Uranium is mined/extracted. That's equally of not more true of renewables like solar and batteries that require large amounts of rare metals.
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    Doesn't change the fact, that it is not actually clean, does it?
- yodsanklai 4y ago
  No energy production is clean. Actually, I'd be curious to compare the damage to the environment caused by uranium extraction vs producing batteries and solar panels.
  - guggle 4y ago
    Indeed, there is no clean energy, it's all relative. I'd like more people to realize this.
  - kergonath 4y ago
    Nuclear and solar panels are about the same. Better than wind and hydro. But all of these are very similar, and are miles better than fossil fuels. It’s difficult to have accurate projections for batteries because the technology that can be used at these scales is not clear (though he vast majority of them need cobalt, which is a huge issue on several levels).
- loeg 4y ago
  Most uranium comes from Kazakhstan. Australia and Canada are also major producers. Namibia produces some, but far from the majority. This isn't exactly a "western countries dumping environmental problems in Africa" story.
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    So is the Uranium extraction story better in those countries? I think that would then be the next question.
    - loeg 4y ago
      I don't think it's particularly bad per GWh of energy produced. You just don't need that much uranium. Compare coal (still being actively mined and burned for energy!), natural gas, exotics for batteries/solar.
    - tomatotomato37 4y ago
      In Australia at least most of it comes from a copper mine that happens to intersect a uranium vein, so as long as the demand for copper exists its extraction is essentially environmentally free
      - TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
        Olympic Dan is the fourth largest copper deposit and the largest known single deposit of uranium in the world.
  - rockinghigh 4y ago
    The uranium used in France comes in part from Niger. The mines in Niger are operated by Orano, a mining company whose main shareholder is also France. There have been controversies about France using foreign aid to pressure the Niger government for more favorable mining contracts.
- kergonath 4y ago
  Any source at all? (Good luck finding one that supports your position). FWIW: yes, mining is bad. But uranium is unbelievably energy-dense and the amounts are ridiculously small compared to any other source of energy. All things considered, nuclear causes fewer emissions per MWh than most solar panels (which are not radioactive but still need heaps of metals and semiconductors). Also, there is no contest with coal, oil, and gas, which is the thing that is actually used when you don’t have nuclear energy available.
  - mensetmanusman 4y ago
    Mining can be done poorly, it isn’t bad, everything rigid we have comes from mining of some form.
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    https://invidio.xamh.de/watch?v=ioRtzOWm07A https://invidio.xamh.de/watch?v=ioRtzOWm07A Here you go. But really, if you had done a simple search of something like "france uranium africa" you would likely have found this yourself. If you only ever search for things supporting your position, but not the opposite position, you are prone to being in a bubble, never seeing contradicting information.
    - shashasha2 4y ago
      Greenpeace documentary
Raed667 4y ago
> the commercial sector is the first being it That's not what they announced, the day before an area code will be revealed, and all electricity will be cut (including schools, public utility and telephone towers) > That’s been illegal for more than a year There is an exception if terrace area is "covered". Guess what everyone installed in the past year?
- WastingMyTime89 4y ago
  What they announced is in addition to what’s always done. The commercial sector has always been the first to be cut. Some companies actually have special contracts which mean they can be cut with barely any notice. If they do large scale blackouts it’s that they can’t manage the load without cutting normal customers so obviously it’s going to hit everyone.

zelphirkalt 4y ago

Same stuff in Germany. We ask households to save energy, but at the same time store windows and malls and whatnot are lit up all night long. Maybe it needs a separate higher energy price for businesses to change that behavior.

bushbaba 4y ago
In the US industrial & large electric consumers often pay a cheaper $/Kwh price. But they also have additional peak demand surcharges.
oezi 4y ago
I can talk only about Berlin but many furniture stores have started to switch all lights off at night. Even the Ikea sign isn't lit anymore.
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  I guess the take on that is, that there is no good regulation for it. If it can be one way in one city, for some of the shops, and different for other cities or other shops, then the measures/policies are not really reaching the target. Apparently one cannot rely on people doing the right thing, especially not, when they are in some kind of loosely associated group like a business, where no one feels responsible at the end. It might be a topic which needs intervention by the state to get the desired effect.
morelisp 4y ago
While I'm sure there's a ton of possible places for commercial use to optimize that aren't being done yet, stores leaving signs on all night was banned by the EnSikuMaV back in August.
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  They should come to my city then and start fining businesses for violating that.

323 4y ago

If malls waste it like that it means that the electricity is too cheap and still plenty. I bet that a lot of it it's subsidized in good old French tradition.

f6v 4y ago

Same in Denmark. A shitload of storefronts lit up at night.

sofixa 4y ago

What are you talking about? Did you forget to update your talking points when everything you're complaining about changed? Stores, including malls, are mandated to shut down lights and screens after hours. Christmas lights and the Eiffel tower shut down at 22:00. Restaurants and bars have been forbidden from heating up terraces for more than a year.