3 ms·

IMO, transit also needs to be clean, reliable, and crime-free if you want to actually see it utilized. Otherwise you are just pushing poor people to an unsafe a

by brk 4y ago

IMO, transit also needs to be clean, reliable, and crime-free if you want to actually see it utilized. Otherwise you are just pushing poor people to an unsafe and inferior transit option that adds other challenges and issues. Like being constantly late for a job when your unreliable transit system leaves them stranded regularly.

Eleison23 4y ago
It's funny about that. Our transit system began an initiative just a bit before COVID-19, aimed at cleaning up the bums and criminals. So most people are not able to hang out on the train or bus, they're hustled off at the nearest stop. What effect that did have is that the train and bus is more empty, but all the bus stops and train stations are clogged with people literally camping out. There is nowhere to sit and wait, because the stop owner either removed the seating or someone is sleeping/camping on the benches already. Every stop is full of skeezy people who have nowhere to go and aren't boarding the bus. So perhaps the perception of clean/reliable/safe has increased aboard the bus, but it has plummeted at the locations where it really counts: the stops and stations where I spend the most time. I feel notably unsafe when waiting for a bus and there's nothing to be done about there, and there's no recourse because nobody's in charge there (the city will point the finger at transit and transit will point the finger back at the city. LEOs won't touch it because it's not a priority.)
- brk 4y ago
  Interesting, what city is that in? FWIW, I was describing the end to end transit experience. Moving undesirables from a bus or train to a waiting area is not really solving the problem. Similarly, having waiting/boarding areas that are overly exposed to the elements, particularly where it gets cold, rainy, or snowy is also not going to encourage someone to trade their car for public transit.
whimsicalism 4y ago
I think the perception with crime on the subway has much more to do with the fact that poor people use the subway, moreso than a danger of subways for poor people. Crime is certainly up, but still you're looking at 1 in a million or less odds to be victim of violent crime on the subway. And anti-social behavior will problem actually go down as a proportion when there are more people on the subway.
- dionidium 4y ago
  I think urbanists have a bit of a blind spot in this area. The typical experience on public transit in most places in the U.S. exceeds the typical American's threshold for tolerating disorder. This can be hard for urbanists to see -- probably because they're more likely to be very high in openness, which just means their tolerance bars are shifted further to the right of the average person. > And anti-social behavior will problem actually go down as a proportion when there are more people on the subway. I think this also hints at something urbanists aren't very good at reckoning with, which is that people do not experience disorder as a per capita phenomenon. If a drug dealer lives on your block, then that's going to have a big impact on quality of life whether there are 500 people on your block or 50, even though, again, the per capita rates in those two scenarios are quite different. People have a proximity theory of crime, not a per capita one. That's why appeals to per capita differences in crime rates often fall flat.
- kortilla 4y ago
  > Crime is certainly up, but still you're looking at 1 in a million or less odds to be victim of violent crime on the subway. This downplays how often you will watch it happen or nearly happen though. It’s unsettling to have a drunk fight break out near you even if you aren’t a “victim”. I used to ride the Caltrain late at night frequently and I witnessed violence and belligerent behavior >20 times over the period of maybe 400 rides. Only 2 of those resulted in police intervention and only 1 may have been reported as having a “victim”. All this to say that counting odds of being an official victim of violent crime drastically downplays how much you will see said crime.
  - coredog64 4y ago
    More than a few times I’ve been on the train with someone who was genuinely crazy. Was I ever assaulted? No, but that’s a loooong ride to the next stop where maybe they’ll get off or you can get help.

by brk 4y ago

Eleison23 4y ago

It's funny about that. Our transit system began an initiative just a bit before COVID-19, aimed at cleaning up the bums and criminals. So most people are not able to hang out on the train or bus, they're hustled off at the nearest stop. What effect that did have is that the train and bus is more empty, but all the bus stops and train stations are clogged with people literally camping out. There is nowhere to sit and wait, because the stop owner either removed the seating or someone is sleeping/camping on the benches already. Every stop is full of skeezy people who have nowhere to go and aren't boarding the bus. So perhaps the perception of clean/reliable/safe has increased aboard the bus, but it has plummeted at the locations where it really counts: the stops and stations where I spend the most time. I feel notably unsafe when waiting for a bus and there's nothing to be done about there, and there's no recourse because nobody's in charge there (the city will point the finger at transit and transit will point the finger back at the city. LEOs won't touch it because it's not a priority.)

brk 4y ago
Interesting, what city is that in? FWIW, I was describing the end to end transit experience. Moving undesirables from a bus or train to a waiting area is not really solving the problem. Similarly, having waiting/boarding areas that are overly exposed to the elements, particularly where it gets cold, rainy, or snowy is also not going to encourage someone to trade their car for public transit.

whimsicalism 4y ago

I think the perception with crime on the subway has much more to do with the fact that poor people use the subway, moreso than a danger of subways for poor people. Crime is certainly up, but still you're looking at 1 in a million or less odds to be victim of violent crime on the subway. And anti-social behavior will problem actually go down as a proportion when there are more people on the subway.

dionidium 4y ago
I think urbanists have a bit of a blind spot in this area. The typical experience on public transit in most places in the U.S. exceeds the typical American's threshold for tolerating disorder. This can be hard for urbanists to see -- probably because they're more likely to be very high in openness, which just means their tolerance bars are shifted further to the right of the average person. > And anti-social behavior will problem actually go down as a proportion when there are more people on the subway. I think this also hints at something urbanists aren't very good at reckoning with, which is that people do not experience disorder as a per capita phenomenon. If a drug dealer lives on your block, then that's going to have a big impact on quality of life whether there are 500 people on your block or 50, even though, again, the per capita rates in those two scenarios are quite different. People have a proximity theory of crime, not a per capita one. That's why appeals to per capita differences in crime rates often fall flat.
kortilla 4y ago
> Crime is certainly up, but still you're looking at 1 in a million or less odds to be victim of violent crime on the subway. This downplays how often you will watch it happen or nearly happen though. It’s unsettling to have a drunk fight break out near you even if you aren’t a “victim”. I used to ride the Caltrain late at night frequently and I witnessed violence and belligerent behavior >20 times over the period of maybe 400 rides. Only 2 of those resulted in police intervention and only 1 may have been reported as having a “victim”. All this to say that counting odds of being an official victim of violent crime drastically downplays how much you will see said crime.
- coredog64 4y ago
  More than a few times I’ve been on the train with someone who was genuinely crazy. Was I ever assaulted? No, but that’s a loooong ride to the next stop where maybe they’ll get off or you can get help.