6 ms·

A German experiment that placed foster children with pedophiles (2021)

119 points by type0 4y ago

skilled 4y ago
https://archive.ph/v88RS https://archive.ph/v88RS
Eleison23 4y ago
- formerly_proven 4y ago
  It’s never too late to graduate out of the sewer, you know.
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - formerly_proven 4y ago
      Sorry.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Project harder?
  - churchill 4y ago
    No, I want him to go ahead: I want to hear the mental gymnastics people use to defend pedophilia.
    - dang 4y ago
      Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  We've banned this account for posting flamewar comments and ignoring our request to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
mc32 4y ago
It's sad to see two things: >Experts having total unquestioned control (and being able to veto and stop investigations) >The state being derelict in its duty to protect children in foster care. >In addition the psychological manipulation and neutering the kids’ sense of worth and self.
- throwawaylinux 4y ago
  It's also sad that the people don't realize that they are the highest authority and ultimate deciders in a society. Not a politician, not a judge, not a police officer, not an expert, but the people. And the people have an absolute right and responsibility to relieve those delegates from positions of power if they derelict their duty to society.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    You so funny. Regular people can do nothing.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  > The state being derelict in its duty to protect children in foster care. It's even worse though - the state was intentionally putting these children in foster care with pedophiles, at least at the higher level of decision-making. It's not that they didn't check, it's that the official policy was that it's ok, mostly since these kids are already too far gone for the pedophilia to matter much (a disturbing classist take in itself).
at_a_remove 4y ago
Forgive me, this is off the cuff and a bit meandering. This article has provoked a feeling which I have, while often thought of, never attempted to put down in concrete terms. Contexually, whenever someone starts going on about Nazis and how it led to this undesirable outcome or another, I have begun to flash back to a book I read called Voluptuous Panic, which detailed the post-WWI era in Germany in terms of how crushed underfoot the Germans were, how devoid they were of men (who had largely been killed in the war) and how the country ended up in this mind-boggling debt, the economy was razed, and finally how the survivors were so desperate that their service economy often revolved around prostitution and degradation. The section on child prostitution is just staggering because it indicates a kind of protracted development of the "tastes" of pedophiles run absolutely wild, given license to indulge. Other abhorrent things are discussed in the book, but that was really the lowest of the bunch. One of the Sin Cities series documentary also explores Berlin of that era, although through rose-tinted glasses. In any case, it's rather easy to see that after being ground into the muck like that, the people were ready to embrace almost anyone who promised something more clean than what they had been subjected to. And of course someone comes along, they always will. But we ended up doing something notionally similar after WWII: more grinding of the Germans (this time through division, sanctions, etc), who seem to be now indoctrinated with a spirit of self-abnegation, as if the Germans of today (the locally born sort, naturally) must offer themselves up as some kind of sacrifice to repent of the sins of previous generations. Why, to prevent fascism we must destroy ... almost everything? The nuclear family, the "oppression of children's sexuality," and so on. And so the whole thing is a perverse echo of the previous post-World War episode, wherein the sentiment is that almost everything must be unmade if only to prevent the mistakes of the past ... which hardly worked the last time around. And so academics make a lot of high-sounding noise about restructuring and sexuality and deconstructing things, nevermind Chesterson's fence. I'm starting to see ghastly echoes of this sort of thing as "MAP" ("minor-attracted persons," supplanting pedophile on the euphemism treadmill) becomes an acronym I see more and more often here in the U.S., and the usual academics begin coming up with bloodless jargon describing their activities. If I had to pick a new mortal sin, I would say that inculcating someone, or a group of people, with a kind of spirit of self-loathing, a wish to erase one's own existence to extirpate a grievance that did not originate with that person high on the list. Once you have done this, you can lead them into the basest acts; nothing is off the table. And so the almighty prevention of fascism, the new Highest Good, leads to this kind of behavior, approved and encouraged even by government and scholars, who will have largely retired or died by the time any kind of momentum for justice will gather.
LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Another name comes to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cohn-Bendit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cohn-Bendit Not directly related to this case, but as part of the political climate which enables such things.
- canadianfella 4y ago
- dstein9 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
luckylion 4y ago
Prepare to wait for another 30 years until this can be openly and honestly discussed in Germany: until the perpetrators and their then-allies are all dead. At the moment, it's in a weird state. Everybody knows it, you can talk about it, but you mustn't go too far, and you mustn't ask for consequences, as many of those who where involved then in the propagation of pedophilia are still in positions of power in politics, academia and the press. I was sent to an after school children's place that was founded with the same principles of sexual hyper-openness. While I'm not aware of any abusive actions against myself, every child knew that some of the staff were too eager to "play" and "show and tell". Others were great people to have around children, but the ideology (in these progressive circles) at the time made it far too easy for actual pedophiles to hide in plain sight, and far too hard for anyone to sound the alarm, as they'd be called a prude and excluded.
- hannob 4y ago
  > Everybody knows it, you can talk about it, but you mustn't go too far, and you mustn't ask for consequences, as many of those who where involved then in the propagation of pedophilia are still in positions of power in politics, academia and the press. Can you name a single person in power in politics, academia and the press today in Germany that was involved in any of this? (Closest I can think of are some politicians who are past their career end and have no official position today.)
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Daniel Cohn-Bendit is one of the most prominent ones who was also very open about his stance back then. I think he's no longer MEP, but he's still a powerful player (much like a president or chancellor doesn't lose all of his power when the stops being the president). There are many more, I know a few at the local level in the city I grew up in, but they (like most, I assume) weren't people you'd know beyond the city. Active and complete uncovering would hurt them & their parties/platforms/organizations today, providing plenty of incentive to keep the topic out of the spot light. It's not that they can stop discussion and investigations (they're not that powerful), but it's like a criminal case: outsiders investigating can only draw a very rough picture, and will only see so much. With today's tribal situation, people look at everything through the lens of "how will this affect my tribe?". When the people involved are no longer around and sufficient time has passed, this equation changes and shifts from "I will lose the next election if this is a major topic" to something for the historians (at least that's what I expect, but it'll take a few more decades).
lapcat 4y ago
(2021)
- dang 4y ago
  Added - thanks. Turns out there was a previous thread too: The German Experiment That Placed Foster Children with Pedophiles - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27889476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27889476 - July 2021 (26 comments)
VictorPath 4y ago
I have to laugh about all these comments talking about the left and pedophilia, as if conservative religious organizations are not rife with child molestation.
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  Isn't that whataboutism ?
  - postalrat 4y ago
    What part of "whataboutism" is a bad argument?
- zenogantner 4y ago
  Why even "the left"? When Marco from the article was put into foster care, both West Berlin and West Germany had conservative governments.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Mostly because the idea that children are sexual and can consent to sex was carried by movements and organizations that later became the German Green party. They're socially progressive (and economically center-left, I'd say, but clearly much less on the left spectrum about economic issues) and are generally considered to be part of "the left". Helmut Kentler, the psychologist mentioned in the article, was also generally considered to be part of "the left".
- drekipus 4y ago
  I think there's two sides of looking at it, one of individual and secretive, the other is academic and desire for governmental policies
- Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
  I think the key difference is that "the left" is more open to adding previously taboo activities or beliefs into its mainstream which can be used as a vector to legitimize abuse. While on "the right" it's more about abusing the power and trust that already exists in conservative communities. Which is worse? I don't think it matters to the victims, but in terms of discussions a difference certainly exists.
spookie 4y ago
I really hope that our society won't continue to turn a blind eye to these cases. From this, to the church, and beyond real life. I'm really sad for what has been happening on the internet, the necessity for kids to be exposed on such an open and risky environment, from such an young age. I don't want to prohibit my children from accessing the internet, nor stalk them. But, I've seen myself in VR chat, how these people are able to corner kids, and progressively doing more and more disturbing interactions.

119 points by type0 4y ago

skilled 4y ago

https://archive.ph/v88RS https://archive.ph/v88RS

Eleison23 4y ago

formerly_proven 4y ago
It’s never too late to graduate out of the sewer, you know.
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - formerly_proven 4y ago
    Sorry.
the_only_law 4y ago
Project harder?
- churchill 4y ago
  No, I want him to go ahead: I want to hear the mental gymnastics people use to defend pedophilia.
  - dang 4y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 4y ago
We've banned this account for posting flamewar comments and ignoring our request to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

mc32 4y ago

It's sad to see two things: >Experts having total unquestioned control (and being able to veto and stop investigations) >The state being derelict in its duty to protect children in foster care. >In addition the psychological manipulation and neutering the kids’ sense of worth and self.

throwawaylinux 4y ago
It's also sad that the people don't realize that they are the highest authority and ultimate deciders in a society. Not a politician, not a judge, not a police officer, not an expert, but the people. And the people have an absolute right and responsibility to relieve those delegates from positions of power if they derelict their duty to society.
- hulitu 4y ago
  You so funny. Regular people can do nothing.
tsimionescu 4y ago
> The state being derelict in its duty to protect children in foster care. It's even worse though - the state was intentionally putting these children in foster care with pedophiles, at least at the higher level of decision-making. It's not that they didn't check, it's that the official policy was that it's ok, mostly since these kids are already too far gone for the pedophilia to matter much (a disturbing classist take in itself).

at_a_remove 4y ago

Forgive me, this is off the cuff and a bit meandering. This article has provoked a feeling which I have, while often thought of, never attempted to put down in concrete terms. Contexually, whenever someone starts going on about Nazis and how it led to this undesirable outcome or another, I have begun to flash back to a book I read called Voluptuous Panic, which detailed the post-WWI era in Germany in terms of how crushed underfoot the Germans were, how devoid they were of men (who had largely been killed in the war) and how the country ended up in this mind-boggling debt, the economy was razed, and finally how the survivors were so desperate that their service economy often revolved around prostitution and degradation. The section on child prostitution is just staggering because it indicates a kind of protracted development of the "tastes" of pedophiles run absolutely wild, given license to indulge. Other abhorrent things are discussed in the book, but that was really the lowest of the bunch. One of the Sin Cities series documentary also explores Berlin of that era, although through rose-tinted glasses. In any case, it's rather easy to see that after being ground into the muck like that, the people were ready to embrace almost anyone who promised something more clean than what they had been subjected to. And of course someone comes along, they always will. But we ended up doing something notionally similar after WWII: more grinding of the Germans (this time through division, sanctions, etc), who seem to be now indoctrinated with a spirit of self-abnegation, as if the Germans of today (the locally born sort, naturally) must offer themselves up as some kind of sacrifice to repent of the sins of previous generations. Why, to prevent fascism we must destroy ... almost everything? The nuclear family, the "oppression of children's sexuality," and so on. And so the whole thing is a perverse echo of the previous post-World War episode, wherein the sentiment is that almost everything must be unmade if only to prevent the mistakes of the past ... which hardly worked the last time around. And so academics make a lot of high-sounding noise about restructuring and sexuality and deconstructing things, nevermind Chesterson's fence. I'm starting to see ghastly echoes of this sort of thing as "MAP" ("minor-attracted persons," supplanting pedophile on the euphemism treadmill) becomes an acronym I see more and more often here in the U.S., and the usual academics begin coming up with bloodless jargon describing their activities. If I had to pick a new mortal sin, I would say that inculcating someone, or a group of people, with a kind of spirit of self-loathing, a wish to erase one's own existence to extirpate a grievance that did not originate with that person high on the list. Once you have done this, you can lead them into the basest acts; nothing is off the table. And so the almighty prevention of fascism, the new Highest Good, leads to this kind of behavior, approved and encouraged even by government and scholars, who will have largely retired or died by the time any kind of momentum for justice will gather.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago

Another name comes to mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cohn-Bendit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Cohn-Bendit Not directly related to this case, but as part of the political climate which enables such things.

canadianfella 4y ago
dstein9 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

luckylion 4y ago

Prepare to wait for another 30 years until this can be openly and honestly discussed in Germany: until the perpetrators and their then-allies are all dead. At the moment, it's in a weird state. Everybody knows it, you can talk about it, but you mustn't go too far, and you mustn't ask for consequences, as many of those who where involved then in the propagation of pedophilia are still in positions of power in politics, academia and the press. I was sent to an after school children's place that was founded with the same principles of sexual hyper-openness. While I'm not aware of any abusive actions against myself, every child knew that some of the staff were too eager to "play" and "show and tell". Others were great people to have around children, but the ideology (in these progressive circles) at the time made it far too easy for actual pedophiles to hide in plain sight, and far too hard for anyone to sound the alarm, as they'd be called a prude and excluded.

hannob 4y ago
> Everybody knows it, you can talk about it, but you mustn't go too far, and you mustn't ask for consequences, as many of those who where involved then in the propagation of pedophilia are still in positions of power in politics, academia and the press. Can you name a single person in power in politics, academia and the press today in Germany that was involved in any of this? (Closest I can think of are some politicians who are past their career end and have no official position today.)
- luckylion 4y ago
  Daniel Cohn-Bendit is one of the most prominent ones who was also very open about his stance back then. I think he's no longer MEP, but he's still a powerful player (much like a president or chancellor doesn't lose all of his power when the stops being the president). There are many more, I know a few at the local level in the city I grew up in, but they (like most, I assume) weren't people you'd know beyond the city. Active and complete uncovering would hurt them & their parties/platforms/organizations today, providing plenty of incentive to keep the topic out of the spot light. It's not that they can stop discussion and investigations (they're not that powerful), but it's like a criminal case: outsiders investigating can only draw a very rough picture, and will only see so much. With today's tribal situation, people look at everything through the lens of "how will this affect my tribe?". When the people involved are no longer around and sufficient time has passed, this equation changes and shifts from "I will lose the next election if this is a major topic" to something for the historians (at least that's what I expect, but it'll take a few more decades).

lapcat 4y ago

(2021)

dang 4y ago
Added - thanks. Turns out there was a previous thread too: The German Experiment That Placed Foster Children with Pedophiles - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27889476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27889476 - July 2021 (26 comments)

VictorPath 4y ago

I have to laugh about all these comments talking about the left and pedophilia, as if conservative religious organizations are not rife with child molestation.

mardifoufs 4y ago
Isn't that whataboutism ?
- postalrat 4y ago
  What part of "whataboutism" is a bad argument?
zenogantner 4y ago
Why even "the left"? When Marco from the article was put into foster care, both West Berlin and West Germany had conservative governments.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Mostly because the idea that children are sexual and can consent to sex was carried by movements and organizations that later became the German Green party. They're socially progressive (and economically center-left, I'd say, but clearly much less on the left spectrum about economic issues) and are generally considered to be part of "the left". Helmut Kentler, the psychologist mentioned in the article, was also generally considered to be part of "the left".
drekipus 4y ago
I think there's two sides of looking at it, one of individual and secretive, the other is academic and desire for governmental policies
Vt71fcAqt7 4y ago
I think the key difference is that "the left" is more open to adding previously taboo activities or beliefs into its mainstream which can be used as a vector to legitimize abuse. While on "the right" it's more about abusing the power and trust that already exists in conservative communities. Which is worse? I don't think it matters to the victims, but in terms of discussions a difference certainly exists.

spookie 4y ago

I really hope that our society won't continue to turn a blind eye to these cases. From this, to the church, and beyond real life. I'm really sad for what has been happening on the internet, the necessity for kids to be exposed on such an open and risky environment, from such an young age. I don't want to prohibit my children from accessing the internet, nor stalk them. But, I've seen myself in VR chat, how these people are able to corner kids, and progressively doing more and more disturbing interactions.