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Why do they expect it to be so expensive? ("It is definitely not cheap to make one of these. We are currently estimating the cost at between $2k - $4k.") With

Why do they expect it to be so expensive? ("It is definitely not cheap to make one of these. We are currently estimating the cost at between $2k - $4k.") With 4769 components on the board, that would suggest a cost per component of over 40 cents. Looking at JLCPCB prices for SMD assembly and components, I would have expected an order of magnitude less.

guidoism 4y ago
I have wondered the same but I think SMD wasn’t as cheap a decade ago as it is today for one-off designs. I wonder what a modern day jlc version would cost.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  If they do manage to sell it in the $200-400 range, I know what's going to be hanging on my wall.
  - jakzurr 4y ago
    Heck yeah! But actually, I'm thinking a nice framed picture might be pretty nice.
  - guidoism 4y ago
    Me too! Honestly, ever since I saw that years ago I wanted one. I don't even like the 6502. I would rather have the ARM1 (http://www.visual6502.org/sim/varm/armgl.html http://www.visual6502.org/sim/varm/armgl.html) but man, oh, man I love this idea. This is the cheapy version of all of that: https://hackaday.com/2022/10/12/the-2022-supercon-badge-is-a-handheld-trip-through-computing-history/ https://hackaday.com/2022/10/12/the-2022-supercon-badge-is-a... though it's all faked and emulated through an MCU. Cool, but not as cool as real discrete logic.
anadem 4y ago
from https://monster6502.com/ https://monster6502.com/ : "the cost is actually dominated by the component and assembly costs of an extremely large number of tiny components, each of which is individually quite inexpensive. "
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Yup. And the cost of debugging the board because of a mistake in the assembly.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  I saw that, but that doesn't line up with the prices I saw, that's why I was confused. As I said, it'd imply over 40 cents (for part + assembly) per component.
tubetime 4y ago
don't forget assembly costs. very few boards have such a large number of components, and they tend to be big and expensive server boards... larger boards are also more difficult to work with in general. JLCPCB plays a few tricks to keep the costs down on the smaller boards, but once you go past certain limits, the price goes up significantly.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  I did consider assembly cost, that's why I was confused. Specifically JLCPCB claims "$0.0017 per joint" for PCB assembly, which would be around 10k joints for the transistors, and another 5k for the resistors, LEDs and other parts, so around $25 + the parts cost. Some other PCB manufacturer (edit: PCBway) I checked also didn't seem to charge more than a few hundred per fully populated board (for the board + assembly). It's of course possible that that JLCPCB pricing goes way up with such parts counts, but the other manufacturer did ask for count + size before producing the automatic quote. Edit: Didn't realize you were the project author - thanks for the response! I guess that's what hides behind "Final price is subject to our review" then. Still, looking forward to seeing this in person
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Most of the components are leds and transistors (and some resistors) and those are (still) dirt cheap... you can get whole microcontrollers for ~3 cents a piece [0] (if you buy a few thousands). PCBs are comparatively cheap, few tens of dollars, depending on the process, and with pick-and-place, assembly is also relatively cheap. so yeah.. maybe they're making them in some more expensive country or use some exotic components. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w

guidoism 4y ago

I have wondered the same but I think SMD wasn’t as cheap a decade ago as it is today for one-off designs. I wonder what a modern day jlc version would cost.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
If they do manage to sell it in the $200-400 range, I know what's going to be hanging on my wall.
- jakzurr 4y ago
  Heck yeah! But actually, I'm thinking a nice framed picture might be pretty nice.
- guidoism 4y ago
  Me too! Honestly, ever since I saw that years ago I wanted one. I don't even like the 6502. I would rather have the ARM1 (http://www.visual6502.org/sim/varm/armgl.html http://www.visual6502.org/sim/varm/armgl.html) but man, oh, man I love this idea. This is the cheapy version of all of that: https://hackaday.com/2022/10/12/the-2022-supercon-badge-is-a-handheld-trip-through-computing-history/ https://hackaday.com/2022/10/12/the-2022-supercon-badge-is-a... though it's all faked and emulated through an MCU. Cool, but not as cool as real discrete logic.

anadem 4y ago

from https://monster6502.com/ https://monster6502.com/ : "the cost is actually dominated by the component and assembly costs of an extremely large number of tiny components, each of which is individually quite inexpensive. "

WalterBright 4y ago
Yup. And the cost of debugging the board because of a mistake in the assembly.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
I saw that, but that doesn't line up with the prices I saw, that's why I was confused. As I said, it'd imply over 40 cents (for part + assembly) per component.

tubetime 4y ago

don't forget assembly costs. very few boards have such a large number of components, and they tend to be big and expensive server boards... larger boards are also more difficult to work with in general. JLCPCB plays a few tricks to keep the costs down on the smaller boards, but once you go past certain limits, the price goes up significantly.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
I did consider assembly cost, that's why I was confused. Specifically JLCPCB claims "$0.0017 per joint" for PCB assembly, which would be around 10k joints for the transistors, and another 5k for the resistors, LEDs and other parts, so around $25 + the parts cost. Some other PCB manufacturer (edit: PCBway) I checked also didn't seem to charge more than a few hundred per fully populated board (for the board + assembly). It's of course possible that that JLCPCB pricing goes way up with such parts counts, but the other manufacturer did ask for count + size before producing the automatic quote. Edit: Didn't realize you were the project author - thanks for the response! I guess that's what hides behind "Final price is subject to our review" then. Still, looking forward to seeing this in person

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

Most of the components are leds and transistors (and some resistors) and those are (still) dirt cheap... you can get whole microcontrollers for ~3 cents a piece [0] (if you buy a few thousands). PCBs are comparatively cheap, few tens of dollars, depending on the process, and with pick-and-place, assembly is also relatively cheap. so yeah.. maybe they're making them in some more expensive country or use some exotic components. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYhAGnsnO7w