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Sleepwalking? I believe they're wide awake and have made their choice: they prefer an inoffensive world over a free one. Maybe it helps them sleep better at nig

Sleepwalking? I believe they're wide awake and have made their choice: they prefer an inoffensive world over a free one. Maybe it helps them sleep better at night but personally I'm not setting foot anywhere I might have an illegal opinion.

andrepd 4y ago
Well then you probably can't set foot anywhere much. If you were thinking of the USA, remember that people have been extra-judicially killed by the state for being "communist", only 2 or 3 decades ago.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Details? And, um, we had an official Communist Party back then, and maybe still do, and the people in it were not killed, so... maybe what you're implying isn't a reasonable inference?
  - andrepd 4y ago
    We do, the CPUSA is still a thing. However, back in the apex of its popularity and influence (interwar period) the people in it were killed, or intimidated, harassed, or imprisioned, over the course of the two major Red Scares. However I was thinking in particular of people like Fred Hampton, a young progressive with an electrifying oratory style who commanded the respect and admiration of his people, advocated for anti-capitalism resistance, self-relience, self-government. The most dangerous kind of subversive: idealist in words, pragmatist in actions. He was assassinated at the peak of his popularity by the FBI on explicit orders of the top of American government. Read the introduction of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO to get an idea of the sort of things we are talking about: intimidation, violence, imprisonment, and assassination if need be, target on people from the Black Panther Party to environmentalists.
    - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
      OK. Got anything that was only two or three decades ago, like you said you had?
      - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
        You mean the thousand that died because USA supported literally the Nazis of the world against totally legal socialist nations, they did not like? Or the countless innocents that died because USA fabricated false evidence to invade foreign countries, not aligned with their interests? each decade had its own operation condor from the US since the end of WW2 A recent example, happened less than a decade ago https://fair.org/home/as-lula-emerges-from-prison-us-media-ignore-how-washington-helped-put-him-there/ https://fair.org/home/as-lula-emerges-from-prison-us-media-i...
      - andrepd 4y ago
        I will ping you when today's documents are declassified, circa 2070 ;)
pelorat 4y ago
Then you are stuck in the USA for the rest of your life. I think the USA is the only country on the entire planet which allows unfettered free speech, every other nation has some legal limits on speech (or expression as we call it in Europe). For instance, what Kanye said on Infowars would likely land him in jail if he was German, and his talk about the holocaust not being real would get him in trouble with the authorities in a lot of other nations.
- insanitybit 4y ago
  The US doesn't allow unfettered free speech, that would be insane (although people on HN may disagree). But it is definitely "extreme" - you can lie publicly, knowingly, and with resulting damages, very easily; it is much more difficult to pursue charges against someone who does so vs in the UK. With regards to political speech, it's even less restrictive.
- UncleSlacky 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...
henry_pulver 4y ago
As a Brit, I'm embarrassed. These politicians are LARPing and haven't learned the most important political lesson of the last 100 years - that restrictions on speech are dangerous.
- dmix 4y ago
  I’ve noticed on HN whenever there’s threads about censorship as soon as it’s late at night here (EST) and morning in Western Europe a ton of censorship defenders come out of the woodworks. So it seems popular among the EU people too, even among the more sophisticated HN crowd.
  - erdos4d 4y ago
    Have lived in the EU and they definitely have a stronger concept of censorship there. You honestly don't have a right to say anything you want, especially if you are saying things to a large audience who might be incited. Most people I have met are quite happy that people such as nazis are censored and cannot spread hate. Given their history, that makes some sense, but I honestly get the feeling they focus too much on appearances and not on trying to actually undermine these groups and interfere with their recruiting. You will find plenty of such people in working class bars around the continent, but as long as they are not making public shows and speeches, the populace seems to ignore them.
    - Krasnol 4y ago
      Why not both? Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. All those groups who gathered under the anti-intellectual agenda of the past years here in Germany would have had someone with this stuff marching the streets against covid restrictions, etc. I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. You can learn about the lies of Holocaust deniers. About the symbols, and so on. Youre "just" not supposed to go out there and recruit people with those tools. The discussion and misunderstanding OP has seen here comes from the fact that the "radical" free speech laws in the US set no borders on spreading this kind of propaganda. The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). This from a foreigner who has been living in Germany for longer.
cyanydeez 4y ago
They're tea cupping fascism while Americans try to grab it by the balls.

andrepd 4y ago

Well then you probably can't set foot anywhere much. If you were thinking of the USA, remember that people have been extra-judicially killed by the state for being "communist", only 2 or 3 decades ago.

AnimalMuppet 4y ago
Details? And, um, we had an official Communist Party back then, and maybe still do, and the people in it were not killed, so... maybe what you're implying isn't a reasonable inference?
- andrepd 4y ago
  We do, the CPUSA is still a thing. However, back in the apex of its popularity and influence (interwar period) the people in it were killed, or intimidated, harassed, or imprisioned, over the course of the two major Red Scares. However I was thinking in particular of people like Fred Hampton, a young progressive with an electrifying oratory style who commanded the respect and admiration of his people, advocated for anti-capitalism resistance, self-relience, self-government. The most dangerous kind of subversive: idealist in words, pragmatist in actions. He was assassinated at the peak of his popularity by the FBI on explicit orders of the top of American government. Read the introduction of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO to get an idea of the sort of things we are talking about: intimidation, violence, imprisonment, and assassination if need be, target on people from the Black Panther Party to environmentalists.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    OK. Got anything that was only two or three decades ago, like you said you had?
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      You mean the thousand that died because USA supported literally the Nazis of the world against totally legal socialist nations, they did not like? Or the countless innocents that died because USA fabricated false evidence to invade foreign countries, not aligned with their interests? each decade had its own operation condor from the US since the end of WW2 A recent example, happened less than a decade ago https://fair.org/home/as-lula-emerges-from-prison-us-media-ignore-how-washington-helped-put-him-there/ https://fair.org/home/as-lula-emerges-from-prison-us-media-i...
    - andrepd 4y ago
      I will ping you when today's documents are declassified, circa 2070 ;)

pelorat 4y ago

Then you are stuck in the USA for the rest of your life. I think the USA is the only country on the entire planet which allows unfettered free speech, every other nation has some legal limits on speech (or expression as we call it in Europe). For instance, what Kanye said on Infowars would likely land him in jail if he was German, and his talk about the holocaust not being real would get him in trouble with the authorities in a lot of other nations.

insanitybit 4y ago
The US doesn't allow unfettered free speech, that would be insane (although people on HN may disagree). But it is definitely "extreme" - you can lie publicly, knowingly, and with resulting damages, very easily; it is much more difficult to pursue charges against someone who does so vs in the UK. With regards to political speech, it's even less restrictive.
UncleSlacky 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...

henry_pulver 4y ago

As a Brit, I'm embarrassed. These politicians are LARPing and haven't learned the most important political lesson of the last 100 years - that restrictions on speech are dangerous.

dmix 4y ago
I’ve noticed on HN whenever there’s threads about censorship as soon as it’s late at night here (EST) and morning in Western Europe a ton of censorship defenders come out of the woodworks. So it seems popular among the EU people too, even among the more sophisticated HN crowd.
- erdos4d 4y ago
  Have lived in the EU and they definitely have a stronger concept of censorship there. You honestly don't have a right to say anything you want, especially if you are saying things to a large audience who might be incited. Most people I have met are quite happy that people such as nazis are censored and cannot spread hate. Given their history, that makes some sense, but I honestly get the feeling they focus too much on appearances and not on trying to actually undermine these groups and interfere with their recruiting. You will find plenty of such people in working class bars around the continent, but as long as they are not making public shows and speeches, the populace seems to ignore them.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    Why not both? Seriously, showing off symbols of national socialism saved Germany many embarrassing clips on international media. All those groups who gathered under the anti-intellectual agenda of the past years here in Germany would have had someone with this stuff marching the streets against covid restrictions, etc. I wouldn't call it censorship either. No symbol or idea is being repressed. You can learn about the lies of Holocaust deniers. About the symbols, and so on. Youre "just" not supposed to go out there and recruit people with those tools. The discussion and misunderstanding OP has seen here comes from the fact that the "radical" free speech laws in the US set no borders on spreading this kind of propaganda. The results are very visible these days in the US and I'm happy they're not in Germany (at least not in a relevant way). This from a foreigner who has been living in Germany for longer.

cyanydeez 4y ago

They're tea cupping fascism while Americans try to grab it by the balls.