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You seem to try to make everyone sound racist by calling everything Chinese rather than single out the government. People here don’t hate Chinese people. They

You seem to try to make everyone sound racist by calling everything Chinese rather than single out the government. People here don’t hate Chinese people. They hate the CCP.

chrischen 4y ago
Trying to single out the government from the people is a convenient way to justify an anti-China stance. Have you even considered the fact that even if the majority of Chinese may not like their own government, that doesn't mean they support yours?
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  At the end of the day calling everything anti China and racist is just a way of deflecting and trying to justify what the government is doing. No one is here defending their own government. Most people in most countries will freely admit when their governments do stuff that’s wrong. But only CCP shills are here defending the CCP and trying to justify genocide, cross border arrests, mass censorship, etc etc. For the record. Do I support my government being the NZ government. Nope. They are trying to pass some laws to prevent the next government from being able to roll anything back. Cement the things they implement even if the citizens disagree.
  - chrischen 4y ago
    Yes so you don’t fully support the NZ government, but you are still a subject of and supporter of (through taxes or even maybe just plain apathy even) of the New Zealand government. And so in this way you can’t say the Chinese people are completely separate from their government, because at the end of the day they are paying taxes and letting their government do these things you object to.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      So what? He doesn’t call everyone racist who criticizes the actions of the NZ government. It seems to only be CCP shills that struggle with this concept. Nobody in the US gets confused when someone from Europe complains about US government military actions and calls them racist. Perhaps you too can learn that criticisms of the CCP have nothing to do with the Chinese citizens?
      - chrischen 4y ago
        > So what? He doesn’t call everyone racist who criticizes the actions of the NZ government. It seems to only be CCP shills that struggle with this concept. You’ve subtly insinuated that anyone pointing out some criticism of China must be calling everyone racist. Has it occurred to you that some are indeed racist? In fact it is not OP pointing out the poster is racist, but they explained why such random allegations can be construed as racist. It is in fact his detractors who are attacking his motivation at a personal level (calling him a CCP shill) and trying to discredit his valid viewpoint without offering any reasoning. There’s no evidence—nor is it even a good hypothesis—that somehow Tiktok is actively trying to subvert American society by feeding it garbage content. Such a conclusion is only reachable if you have an inherent bias that the motives in China towards the West are always evil. As others pointed out America produces and consumes garbage content well before TikTok… as well as companies like Meta literally copying tiktok features in shoveling garbage content… so twisting this narrative to antagonize and reframe China as the bad actor—at least in this specific case—is one rooted in inherent bias and laziness. Have you considered that the difference is simply because the Chinese government, with their well known heavy handed authoritarianism, simply not allowing TikTok to do that within China? Is western society so flawless that it is unwilling to accept its own failures that it must accuse others of active subterfuge instead? I won’t argue with you about this anymore at a fundamental level because the issue at hand is that you are among many blindly discrediting and disregarding opposition. So I’ll ask you this for your own contemplation: is it even possible to say something or make an argument that just coincidentally isn’t anti CCP that doesn’t get us labeled as a CCP shill? If you’re going to answer avoid personal attacks and avoid “CCP shill” because that is not using any “facts” and is just a blind attempt to discredit the arguments being made. No one called anyone a racist. Some arguments and ideas were labeled sinophobic but no one made the accusation that a person must be sinophobic and therefore their ideas must be as well. But you are doing exactly that, but instead calling us CCP shills…
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      It’s not even compatible. I can criticise my government safely. You cannot say anything negative about the CCP without repercussions. So it’s probably better you stop trying to defend and justify the CCP. It just makes you look like a supporter of an authoritarian regime that commits genocide to its own people.
      - chrischen 4y ago
        Philip you’ve already showed your hand and revealed your biases by assuming things about my background… sorry but wholly unrelated as I am a US citizen and I can in fact freely criticize the CCP and I often do. But here in this thread we were talking about something specific. Since it’s not even possible to say something that doesn’t criticize the CCP that doesn’t get you labeled as “a supporter of the regime” there’s no point arguing with you. As you pointed out, you can disagree with your own government (assuming the CCP were my own government) but it doesn’t mean your government only does bad things. Rather than worrying about if I can criticize my own government, or anything about me or what I look like I am doing, why not focus on my arguments like a civilized democratic freedom of speech supporting society? Free discourse only works if you listen.
        philliphaydon 4y ago
        > I am a US citizen and I can in fact freely criticize the CCP You cannot criticize the CCP while living in China and you know this.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    It's funny how in order to criticize another government we must first criticize our own. It should go without saying that nobody fully supports everything their government does. It's obvious and doesn't really need to be stated.
- bjourne 4y ago
  It's perfectly fine to separate the government from the people. That is why it is fine to hate the Chinese, Israeli, Iranian, Russian, and Saudi Arabian regimes.
  - chrischen 4y ago
    You can but I don’t think it’s possible to without at least some blame by association. Even if I didn’t support the invasion of Iraq and the occupation of Afghanistan, I am still culpable as an American, and as a benefiter of American government policies (in general).
    - bjourne 4y ago
      Yes, in Democracies people are culpable for the actions of their government. But I think the obligations of the Americans, Israelis, Russians, Chinese, etc is limited to consent to paying reparations to people their state has committed atrocities against. For example by paying a special tax which goes to the wronged people.
okasaki 4y ago
The CCP has 97 million members and broad public support (in b4 "the Chinese don't know what's good for them") There are probably ways to "hate the CCP" without hating Chinese people, but it's difficult to see how.
- alexschnapp 4y ago
  "Broad public support" There is absolutely no basis to this claim unless there's an alternative party to compare to
  - okasaki 4y ago
    So, they don't know what's good for them?
    - alexschnapp 4y ago
      I never said that. What do you mean by they don't know? What are they going to do even if they did know? It's not like they can (short of an armed rebellion) demand to have another political party or government. It's like saying a thug is robbing me at gunpoint so I give him my wallet. You only observe that I give my wallet therefore giving that guy my wallet was good for me and fail to observe the gun.

You seem to try to make everyone sound racist by calling everything Chinese rather than single out the government. People here don’t hate Chinese people. They hate the CCP.

chrischen 4y ago

Trying to single out the government from the people is a convenient way to justify an anti-China stance. Have you even considered the fact that even if the majority of Chinese may not like their own government, that doesn't mean they support yours?

philliphaydon 4y ago
At the end of the day calling everything anti China and racist is just a way of deflecting and trying to justify what the government is doing. No one is here defending their own government. Most people in most countries will freely admit when their governments do stuff that’s wrong. But only CCP shills are here defending the CCP and trying to justify genocide, cross border arrests, mass censorship, etc etc. For the record. Do I support my government being the NZ government. Nope. They are trying to pass some laws to prevent the next government from being able to roll anything back. Cement the things they implement even if the citizens disagree.
- chrischen 4y ago
  Yes so you don’t fully support the NZ government, but you are still a subject of and supporter of (through taxes or even maybe just plain apathy even) of the New Zealand government. And so in this way you can’t say the Chinese people are completely separate from their government, because at the end of the day they are paying taxes and letting their government do these things you object to.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    So what? He doesn’t call everyone racist who criticizes the actions of the NZ government. It seems to only be CCP shills that struggle with this concept. Nobody in the US gets confused when someone from Europe complains about US government military actions and calls them racist. Perhaps you too can learn that criticisms of the CCP have nothing to do with the Chinese citizens?
    - chrischen 4y ago
      > So what? He doesn’t call everyone racist who criticizes the actions of the NZ government. It seems to only be CCP shills that struggle with this concept. You’ve subtly insinuated that anyone pointing out some criticism of China must be calling everyone racist. Has it occurred to you that some are indeed racist? In fact it is not OP pointing out the poster is racist, but they explained why such random allegations can be construed as racist. It is in fact his detractors who are attacking his motivation at a personal level (calling him a CCP shill) and trying to discredit his valid viewpoint without offering any reasoning. There’s no evidence—nor is it even a good hypothesis—that somehow Tiktok is actively trying to subvert American society by feeding it garbage content. Such a conclusion is only reachable if you have an inherent bias that the motives in China towards the West are always evil. As others pointed out America produces and consumes garbage content well before TikTok… as well as companies like Meta literally copying tiktok features in shoveling garbage content… so twisting this narrative to antagonize and reframe China as the bad actor—at least in this specific case—is one rooted in inherent bias and laziness. Have you considered that the difference is simply because the Chinese government, with their well known heavy handed authoritarianism, simply not allowing TikTok to do that within China? Is western society so flawless that it is unwilling to accept its own failures that it must accuse others of active subterfuge instead? I won’t argue with you about this anymore at a fundamental level because the issue at hand is that you are among many blindly discrediting and disregarding opposition. So I’ll ask you this for your own contemplation: is it even possible to say something or make an argument that just coincidentally isn’t anti CCP that doesn’t get us labeled as a CCP shill? If you’re going to answer avoid personal attacks and avoid “CCP shill” because that is not using any “facts” and is just a blind attempt to discredit the arguments being made. No one called anyone a racist. Some arguments and ideas were labeled sinophobic but no one made the accusation that a person must be sinophobic and therefore their ideas must be as well. But you are doing exactly that, but instead calling us CCP shills…
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    It’s not even compatible. I can criticise my government safely. You cannot say anything negative about the CCP without repercussions. So it’s probably better you stop trying to defend and justify the CCP. It just makes you look like a supporter of an authoritarian regime that commits genocide to its own people.
    - chrischen 4y ago
      Philip you’ve already showed your hand and revealed your biases by assuming things about my background… sorry but wholly unrelated as I am a US citizen and I can in fact freely criticize the CCP and I often do. But here in this thread we were talking about something specific. Since it’s not even possible to say something that doesn’t criticize the CCP that doesn’t get you labeled as “a supporter of the regime” there’s no point arguing with you. As you pointed out, you can disagree with your own government (assuming the CCP were my own government) but it doesn’t mean your government only does bad things. Rather than worrying about if I can criticize my own government, or anything about me or what I look like I am doing, why not focus on my arguments like a civilized democratic freedom of speech supporting society? Free discourse only works if you listen.
      - philliphaydon 4y ago
        > I am a US citizen and I can in fact freely criticize the CCP You cannot criticize the CCP while living in China and you know this.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  It's funny how in order to criticize another government we must first criticize our own. It should go without saying that nobody fully supports everything their government does. It's obvious and doesn't really need to be stated.
bjourne 4y ago
It's perfectly fine to separate the government from the people. That is why it is fine to hate the Chinese, Israeli, Iranian, Russian, and Saudi Arabian regimes.
- chrischen 4y ago
  You can but I don’t think it’s possible to without at least some blame by association. Even if I didn’t support the invasion of Iraq and the occupation of Afghanistan, I am still culpable as an American, and as a benefiter of American government policies (in general).
  - bjourne 4y ago
    Yes, in Democracies people are culpable for the actions of their government. But I think the obligations of the Americans, Israelis, Russians, Chinese, etc is limited to consent to paying reparations to people their state has committed atrocities against. For example by paying a special tax which goes to the wronged people.

okasaki 4y ago

The CCP has 97 million members and broad public support (in b4 "the Chinese don't know what's good for them") There are probably ways to "hate the CCP" without hating Chinese people, but it's difficult to see how.

alexschnapp 4y ago
"Broad public support" There is absolutely no basis to this claim unless there's an alternative party to compare to
- okasaki 4y ago
  So, they don't know what's good for them?
  - alexschnapp 4y ago
    I never said that. What do you mean by they don't know? What are they going to do even if they did know? It's not like they can (short of an armed rebellion) demand to have another political party or government. It's like saying a thug is robbing me at gunpoint so I give him my wallet. You only observe that I give my wallet therefore giving that guy my wallet was good for me and fail to observe the gun.