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Since when is India a country the US should be emulating? Run standardized tests and admit based on actual knowledge and ability. The rest is bullshit. Isn't

Since when is India a country the US should be emulating? Run standardized tests and admit based on actual knowledge and ability. The rest is bullshit. Isn't that what India does, and isn't the system rife with cheaters?

debacle 4y ago
I understand and mostly agree with what you're trying to say, but your first statement seems a bit prejudiced.
RestlessMind 4y ago
> Isn't that what India does, Yes. > and isn't the system rife with cheaters? That's an orthogonal point. Even the American system is rife with cheaters, either explicit[1] or legalized cheating aka College Prep industry which helps you with everything including essays if you pay enough. So again, what is the US achieving exactly? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal
- throwaway23236 4y ago
  I feel like one is a cultural problem and one was an isolated incident. See my above comment on really some east vs west culture.
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    There’s a larger point about institutionalized unfairness, though. Sure, it may have been an isolated incident of some students pretending to be athletes, but the larger question is why are athletes being given preferential admission to Harvard in the first place? And whatever the answer to that question is, it’s going to require a bloated admissions department to make it happen.
  - RestlessMind 4y ago
    > an isolated incident what? US has legalized cheating in so many ways (athletes, college preps, dean's lists, legacies...). People with enough resources and/or enough motivation will always find a way to get what they want. US gives them a paved road while in the East, they have to cheat. When they can't find a paved road, they cheat in the West as well.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > I feel like one is a cultural problem and one was an isolated incident. I don't know you, but I'm going to guess the cultural problem is a problem of a culture not your own, and what happens in your culture is the series of isolated incidents.
throwaway23236 4y ago
I just want to say, and I hate that saying this makes me come off as racist because I don't want to speak about a whole country. I go to a pretty good American school which has a lot of foreigners going on visas, the majority being Indian and Chinese students. The group of Indian students in my under grad got caught cheating all together. They were just hanging out in discord giving each other answers. In a lot of other countries it's seen as an "Us vs The Man" mentality. So if you are cheating or figure out how to take advantage of a system you are seen as beating "The Man or The System" and you are smarter than it. In a lot of Western counties, that is not the case.
janalsncm 4y ago
I think it’s a stretch to say that test-based admission causes cheating in Indian university admissions. They co-occur, but I don’t see the causal relationship.
- docandrew 4y ago
  I guess when everything rides on a single test result it’s more tempting to try and game it?
screye 4y ago
> isn't the system rife with cheaters? No ? All of the high stakes entrance examinations CAT / JEE / NEET / Civil services are completely cheating free and the systems goes through great troubles to enforce it. I believe it is exactly the same for law schools, accountants and NDA (defense) exams. That about covers all of India's well regarded professions. Cheating happens in courses once you're in College because of a general apathy towards what is being taught (sadly) and the knowledge that your grades don't matter for much.

debacle 4y ago

I understand and mostly agree with what you're trying to say, but your first statement seems a bit prejudiced.

RestlessMind 4y ago

> Isn't that what India does, Yes. > and isn't the system rife with cheaters? That's an orthogonal point. Even the American system is rife with cheaters, either explicit[1] or legalized cheating aka College Prep industry which helps you with everything including essays if you pay enough. So again, what is the US achieving exactly? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Blues_scandal

throwaway23236 4y ago
I feel like one is a cultural problem and one was an isolated incident. See my above comment on really some east vs west culture.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  There’s a larger point about institutionalized unfairness, though. Sure, it may have been an isolated incident of some students pretending to be athletes, but the larger question is why are athletes being given preferential admission to Harvard in the first place? And whatever the answer to that question is, it’s going to require a bloated admissions department to make it happen.
- RestlessMind 4y ago
  > an isolated incident what? US has legalized cheating in so many ways (athletes, college preps, dean's lists, legacies...). People with enough resources and/or enough motivation will always find a way to get what they want. US gives them a paved road while in the East, they have to cheat. When they can't find a paved road, they cheat in the West as well.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > I feel like one is a cultural problem and one was an isolated incident. I don't know you, but I'm going to guess the cultural problem is a problem of a culture not your own, and what happens in your culture is the series of isolated incidents.

throwaway23236 4y ago

I just want to say, and I hate that saying this makes me come off as racist because I don't want to speak about a whole country. I go to a pretty good American school which has a lot of foreigners going on visas, the majority being Indian and Chinese students. The group of Indian students in my under grad got caught cheating all together. They were just hanging out in discord giving each other answers. In a lot of other countries it's seen as an "Us vs The Man" mentality. So if you are cheating or figure out how to take advantage of a system you are seen as beating "The Man or The System" and you are smarter than it. In a lot of Western counties, that is not the case.

janalsncm 4y ago

I think it’s a stretch to say that test-based admission causes cheating in Indian university admissions. They co-occur, but I don’t see the causal relationship.

docandrew 4y ago
I guess when everything rides on a single test result it’s more tempting to try and game it?

screye 4y ago

> isn't the system rife with cheaters? No ? All of the high stakes entrance examinations CAT / JEE / NEET / Civil services are completely cheating free and the systems goes through great troubles to enforce it. I believe it is exactly the same for law schools, accountants and NDA (defense) exams. That about covers all of India's well regarded professions. Cheating happens in courses once you're in College because of a general apathy towards what is being taught (sadly) and the knowledge that your grades don't matter for much.