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Semi-trucks use diesel. Diesel is between $5-$6/gallon: https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ Let's use $5/gallon.

by js2 4y ago

Semi-trucks use diesel. Diesel is between $5-$6/gallon: https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ https://www.eia.gov/petroleum/gasdiesel/ Let's use $5/gallon. According to random website https://motorask.com/semi-trucks-mileage/ https://motorask.com/semi-trucks-mileage/ > On average, semi-trucks get around 6.5 miles a gallon But according to https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-many-miles-per-gallon-do-semi-trucks-get/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-many-miles-per-gallon-do-se... > Transporting freight from one location to another isn’t cheap. We all pay so much for shipping because semi-trucks are gas guzzlers. In the early ’70s, it was estimated that the average semi got about 5.6 MPG, but that amount has increased slightly. In 2014, new semi-trucks were required to get 7.2 MPG on average. Heck, let's use 10 MPG. 500 miles ÷ 10 miles/gallon x $5/gallon = $250. So even with liberal estimates in diesel's favor, unless my numbers are way off, electric comes out way ahead.

Arainach 4y ago
....per trip. What about lifetime? With a more pessimistic 6.5MPG, using mbell's math, that's 82 cents per mile in fuel. Electric is 19 cents per mile. An average semi lasts 750,000 miles: https://www.tristatetruck.com/blog/posts/what-is-the-average-lifespan-of-a-long-haul-truck https://www.tristatetruck.com/blog/posts/what-is-the-average... Let's assume for a moment that Tesla has made a motor and batteries that will last that long (far from guaranteed). Heck, let's take some random internet claims at face value and say that the motor will last "millions" of miles and the batteries will last 300,000 miles: https://www.vehiclehistory.com/articles/how-many-miles-will-a-tesla-typically-last https://www.vehiclehistory.com/articles/how-many-miles-will-.... Will these batteries last 300k with a likely use case of being driven to their absolute maximum range every single day? In that 300,000 miles, the fuel savings of electric will save you 300k * (0.82-0.19) = $189k. Replacing all the battery modules in a Model 3 (82kWh) will cost somewhere in the range of $25k. How much would replacing this giant battery cost? It's possibly better, but the math isn't particularly clear.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  A dead battery isn't dead, it just has a reduced capacity. Usually the battery is considered dead at 80%, so it's a 400 mile truck then. That 400 mile truck is still useful, so it'd probably be cheaper to sell the 400 mile truck and buy a new truck then to replace the battery and sell the old battery. Another question is: how much of the savings in fuel costs going to go to the operator and how much is going to go to Tesla in purchase price? 5 years ago it was announced at $180K, but it's certainly going to sell for a lot more than that. A Nikola Tre with 360 mile range goes for $270K, so it's quite possible that Tesla will charge $400K for theirs. So you might start off at about $250K in the hole so it'll be hundreds of thousands of miles before the Tesla is cheaper than a diesel.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  If the battery lasts 2000 cycles (reasonable for good chemistry… some chemistries can last over 5000 cycles), then that’s 1 million miles. (Tesla’s powertrain is certified for that much, too). At electric 19cents per miles and diesel at 82 cents per mile, that’s $630,000 in savings just for fuel, not to mention Diesel Exhaust Fluid, oil changes, and brakes. The 500 mile range Tesla Semi cost $180,000 at launch. Let’s say they’re off by nearly a factor of 2, so new Semis will be $315,000. That means you’ll be able to buy 2 500 mile Tesla Semis for just the fuel savings from one.
citilife 4y ago
You're selecting a gas price at all-time highs: https://agtransport.usda.gov/Fuel/Historical-Diesel-Fuel-Prices/u2kh-s8ke https://agtransport.usda.gov/Fuel/Historical-Diesel-Fuel-Pri... A fair assessment would be $3/gal (what it was prior to 2021). That changes the price dynamics rather quickly.. Further, you get less bang-for-your buck on electric vehicles in the cold. Everything from the breaks to the power runs less efficiently and you'll lose range / capacity. I don't see this as a super good deal, though for potentially for short-haul (i.e. a few hundred mile) trucking situation(s).
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Just because it's cold outside doesn't mean the truck is cold. Sure it'll be less efficient starting off in the morning, but once it gets going it'll warm up quickly. The truck might be 92% efficient at turning electricity into motion, but 8% of 1.7kWh/mile gives you 130W of heat.
  - lazide 4y ago
    130 watts is nothing in this context? One issue with most lithium chemistry is that it isn’t rechargeable below freezing - it causes permanent damage to the pack. Practically speaking, this is solvable using in-pack heaters which divert the charging power to warming up the pack first. This takes time if it’s been allowed to sit. Laws of physics and all. Charging these batteries is also going to take time, a lot of it, and significant charging infrastructure. Short haul might go through a tank a day, but long haul often uses two drivers working in shifts and can cover 1000+ miles a day easily. It takes 30 minutes or less to refill a diesel long haul truck. Unless they can get charging times down to an hour or less (which if it is a 875kwh pack like some folks think, that means literally megawatt sustained charging rates), it would require a major change in how long haul truckers work to have a chance. Current superchargers max out at 250kw, which at max rates would take 3-4 hours to recharge, and they require a decent amount of expensive infrastructure to be able to support that. If it is much cheaper, that could happen though!
    - cookingrobot 4y ago

by js2 4y ago

Arainach 4y ago

....per trip. What about lifetime? With a more pessimistic 6.5MPG, using mbell's math, that's 82 cents per mile in fuel. Electric is 19 cents per mile. An average semi lasts 750,000 miles: https://www.tristatetruck.com/blog/posts/what-is-the-average-lifespan-of-a-long-haul-truck https://www.tristatetruck.com/blog/posts/what-is-the-average... Let's assume for a moment that Tesla has made a motor and batteries that will last that long (far from guaranteed). Heck, let's take some random internet claims at face value and say that the motor will last "millions" of miles and the batteries will last 300,000 miles: https://www.vehiclehistory.com/articles/how-many-miles-will-a-tesla-typically-last https://www.vehiclehistory.com/articles/how-many-miles-will-.... Will these batteries last 300k with a likely use case of being driven to their absolute maximum range every single day? In that 300,000 miles, the fuel savings of electric will save you 300k * (0.82-0.19) = $189k. Replacing all the battery modules in a Model 3 (82kWh) will cost somewhere in the range of $25k. How much would replacing this giant battery cost? It's possibly better, but the math isn't particularly clear.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
A dead battery isn't dead, it just has a reduced capacity. Usually the battery is considered dead at 80%, so it's a 400 mile truck then. That 400 mile truck is still useful, so it'd probably be cheaper to sell the 400 mile truck and buy a new truck then to replace the battery and sell the old battery. Another question is: how much of the savings in fuel costs going to go to the operator and how much is going to go to Tesla in purchase price? 5 years ago it was announced at $180K, but it's certainly going to sell for a lot more than that. A Nikola Tre with 360 mile range goes for $270K, so it's quite possible that Tesla will charge $400K for theirs. So you might start off at about $250K in the hole so it'll be hundreds of thousands of miles before the Tesla is cheaper than a diesel.
Robotbeat 4y ago
If the battery lasts 2000 cycles (reasonable for good chemistry… some chemistries can last over 5000 cycles), then that’s 1 million miles. (Tesla’s powertrain is certified for that much, too). At electric 19cents per miles and diesel at 82 cents per mile, that’s $630,000 in savings just for fuel, not to mention Diesel Exhaust Fluid, oil changes, and brakes. The 500 mile range Tesla Semi cost $180,000 at launch. Let’s say they’re off by nearly a factor of 2, so new Semis will be $315,000. That means you’ll be able to buy 2 500 mile Tesla Semis for just the fuel savings from one.

citilife 4y ago

You're selecting a gas price at all-time highs: https://agtransport.usda.gov/Fuel/Historical-Diesel-Fuel-Prices/u2kh-s8ke https://agtransport.usda.gov/Fuel/Historical-Diesel-Fuel-Pri... A fair assessment would be $3/gal (what it was prior to 2021). That changes the price dynamics rather quickly.. Further, you get less bang-for-your buck on electric vehicles in the cold. Everything from the breaks to the power runs less efficiently and you'll lose range / capacity. I don't see this as a super good deal, though for potentially for short-haul (i.e. a few hundred mile) trucking situation(s).

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Just because it's cold outside doesn't mean the truck is cold. Sure it'll be less efficient starting off in the morning, but once it gets going it'll warm up quickly. The truck might be 92% efficient at turning electricity into motion, but 8% of 1.7kWh/mile gives you 130W of heat.
- lazide 4y ago
  130 watts is nothing in this context? One issue with most lithium chemistry is that it isn’t rechargeable below freezing - it causes permanent damage to the pack. Practically speaking, this is solvable using in-pack heaters which divert the charging power to warming up the pack first. This takes time if it’s been allowed to sit. Laws of physics and all. Charging these batteries is also going to take time, a lot of it, and significant charging infrastructure. Short haul might go through a tank a day, but long haul often uses two drivers working in shifts and can cover 1000+ miles a day easily. It takes 30 minutes or less to refill a diesel long haul truck. Unless they can get charging times down to an hour or less (which if it is a 875kwh pack like some folks think, that means literally megawatt sustained charging rates), it would require a major change in how long haul truckers work to have a chance. Current superchargers max out at 250kw, which at max rates would take 3-4 hours to recharge, and they require a decent amount of expensive infrastructure to be able to support that. If it is much cheaper, that could happen though!
  - cookingrobot 4y ago