4 ms·

Jordan Peterson, Matt Walsh, Matt Fradd, and a host of other Christians for similar points having in common that they deny transgender sex change.

jtode 4y ago
>sex change *gender affirmation (edit: which is to say, trans people never made any claim to changing anyone's sex)
- gijtyd 4y ago
  Not true - if you go on social media such as Twitter and Reddit, you'll often see trans people making the claim that they've actually changed sex. Along with other nonsense, like transwomen claiming that they have a menstrual cycle.
  - jtode 4y ago
    I can find you people of any ideological stripe who will say all sorts of outlandish and astonishingly wrong things; this does not mean that you should choose those worst examples as your exemplars. If I did that, I would have to assume that anyone right wing was a full-on nazi, which even with the nascent fascist jock itch we're all suffering, is ridiculous. But the fact is that Sex and Gender are two different concepts - one, as you point out, is a biological matter having to do with reproduction, and is settled and done, usually, long before the body becomes conscious. Gender, on the other hand, manifests mostly as performance, but nonetheless arises from a deep-seated place in the mind. So if someone says their gender does not match their sex, this is not a difficult concept to hold in one's head. I don't doubt you've seen people saying horrible things of all kinds on Twitter and Reddit, but understand, those places have nothing to do with the real world. You're here because on some level, you do understand that, and you want better. Welcome.
    - gijtyd 4y ago
      These are surprisingly common examples. The idea behind the first is to redefine sex as a collection of attributes, and then claim that because a significant number of these attributes have changed, then sex has too. So a transwoman who believes this may point to his estrogen levels, breast growth, etc. as an indicator that he is female. This is why many claim to have a menstrual cycle too, it's intended as further indication of being female. When people say that their gender doesn't match their sex, they're expressing a rejection of their material existence. These are men who don't want to be men, and women who don't want to be women. I think it's no surprise that many then engage in self-deception, looking for ways to support a belief that they aren't the sex that they actually are.
theprincess 4y ago
Harassing transgender people and defaming them the way that Peterson did Eliot Page is not simply saying "men are not women." What he actually said was that the surgery that he had, to reduce his breast size in the same way a cis man who had gynecomastia would, was criminal. Here's a right leaning site with screenshots of the tweet if that makes you feel better: https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/twitter-suspends-jordan-peterson-for-elliot-page-sin-tweet/ https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/twitter-suspends-jordan-peters... Matt Walsh trolls transgender people and enjoys making their lives miserable because he believes their existence is a threat to his personal code of morality. He also wishes to ban transgender people, even adults, from receiving any sort of care beyond conversion therapy which is considered abusive and banned in many countries. https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/daily-wires-matt-walsh-says-he-supports-universal-ban-all-gender-affirming-medical-care https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/daily-wires-matt-wal... None of them are simply saying "men are not women." It's like the difference between saying you think homosexuals are deviants who should burn in hell and saying "marriage is between a man and a woman." In both cases you're trying to be a jerk, but in the former you're being a lot more aggressive about it. There's a reason why even most homophobes don't like the Westboro Baptist Church. Only the biggest jerks support openly harassing and trolling people because of things that they can't control. Even if you think being gay or trans is a mental illness, a mental illness is still something you can't control. Trolling people is obviously not an attempt to help them. It's an attempt to make them suffer because you hate them.
- nailer 4y ago
  > Harassing transgender people and defaming them the way that Peterson did Eliot Page Did you read the tweet you posted? Peterson’s criticisms of Ellen Page’s physician (not even Page herself) are not harassment or defamation any more than your criticisms of Peterson are.
  - theprincess 4y ago
    > not even Page herself I see that you're not ideologically motivated here. ^_^ It's decidedly not "criminal" for an adult to get a surgery that is commonplace for men with gynecomastia just because they have an "F" on their birth certificate. Breast tissue is breast tissue and there is no regulation that says that anyone has to have a minimum amount of it based on their sex assigned at birth. Women have breast reductions, especially at advanced ages, to help with their mobility all the time after all. Peterson's objective was to slur Eliot Page by casting him and the doctor who treated him in a negative light. It's slimy trolling and provocation. Not speaking truth or even a simple fact like that "men are not women." Just thinly veiled hate for his hungry audience to feed on.

jtode 4y ago

>sex change *gender affirmation (edit: which is to say, trans people never made any claim to changing anyone's sex)

gijtyd 4y ago
Not true - if you go on social media such as Twitter and Reddit, you'll often see trans people making the claim that they've actually changed sex. Along with other nonsense, like transwomen claiming that they have a menstrual cycle.
- jtode 4y ago
  I can find you people of any ideological stripe who will say all sorts of outlandish and astonishingly wrong things; this does not mean that you should choose those worst examples as your exemplars. If I did that, I would have to assume that anyone right wing was a full-on nazi, which even with the nascent fascist jock itch we're all suffering, is ridiculous. But the fact is that Sex and Gender are two different concepts - one, as you point out, is a biological matter having to do with reproduction, and is settled and done, usually, long before the body becomes conscious. Gender, on the other hand, manifests mostly as performance, but nonetheless arises from a deep-seated place in the mind. So if someone says their gender does not match their sex, this is not a difficult concept to hold in one's head. I don't doubt you've seen people saying horrible things of all kinds on Twitter and Reddit, but understand, those places have nothing to do with the real world. You're here because on some level, you do understand that, and you want better. Welcome.
  - gijtyd 4y ago
    These are surprisingly common examples. The idea behind the first is to redefine sex as a collection of attributes, and then claim that because a significant number of these attributes have changed, then sex has too. So a transwoman who believes this may point to his estrogen levels, breast growth, etc. as an indicator that he is female. This is why many claim to have a menstrual cycle too, it's intended as further indication of being female. When people say that their gender doesn't match their sex, they're expressing a rejection of their material existence. These are men who don't want to be men, and women who don't want to be women. I think it's no surprise that many then engage in self-deception, looking for ways to support a belief that they aren't the sex that they actually are.

theprincess 4y ago

Harassing transgender people and defaming them the way that Peterson did Eliot Page is not simply saying "men are not women." What he actually said was that the surgery that he had, to reduce his breast size in the same way a cis man who had gynecomastia would, was criminal. Here's a right leaning site with screenshots of the tweet if that makes you feel better: https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/twitter-suspends-jordan-peterson-for-elliot-page-sin-tweet/ https://nypost.com/2022/06/30/twitter-suspends-jordan-peters... Matt Walsh trolls transgender people and enjoys making their lives miserable because he believes their existence is a threat to his personal code of morality. He also wishes to ban transgender people, even adults, from receiving any sort of care beyond conversion therapy which is considered abusive and banned in many countries. https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/daily-wires-matt-walsh-says-he-supports-universal-ban-all-gender-affirming-medical-care https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/daily-wires-matt-wal... None of them are simply saying "men are not women." It's like the difference between saying you think homosexuals are deviants who should burn in hell and saying "marriage is between a man and a woman." In both cases you're trying to be a jerk, but in the former you're being a lot more aggressive about it. There's a reason why even most homophobes don't like the Westboro Baptist Church. Only the biggest jerks support openly harassing and trolling people because of things that they can't control. Even if you think being gay or trans is a mental illness, a mental illness is still something you can't control. Trolling people is obviously not an attempt to help them. It's an attempt to make them suffer because you hate them.

nailer 4y ago
> Harassing transgender people and defaming them the way that Peterson did Eliot Page Did you read the tweet you posted? Peterson’s criticisms of Ellen Page’s physician (not even Page herself) are not harassment or defamation any more than your criticisms of Peterson are.
- theprincess 4y ago
  > not even Page herself I see that you're not ideologically motivated here. ^_^ It's decidedly not "criminal" for an adult to get a surgery that is commonplace for men with gynecomastia just because they have an "F" on their birth certificate. Breast tissue is breast tissue and there is no regulation that says that anyone has to have a minimum amount of it based on their sex assigned at birth. Women have breast reductions, especially at advanced ages, to help with their mobility all the time after all. Peterson's objective was to slur Eliot Page by casting him and the doctor who treated him in a negative light. It's slimy trolling and provocation. Not speaking truth or even a simple fact like that "men are not women." Just thinly veiled hate for his hungry audience to feed on.