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That one is a tough calculation imo. My worthless opinion is that Ukraine and the west should’ve negotiated right at the beginning by guaranteeing no NATO membe

by rank0 4y ago

That one is a tough calculation imo. My worthless opinion is that Ukraine and the west should’ve negotiated right at the beginning by guaranteeing no NATO membership. Even if Ukraine wins in the end, the country has become a smoldering pile of rubble. There was even such a deal on the table in the early stages that the west pretty much killed… At this point though idk what diplomatic solution exists. Deescalation should be everyone’s #1 goal atm.

kybernetyk 4y ago
- ilyt 4y ago
  As is/was most post USRR countries. It's a national disease that's hard to heal, and it was also kept there by the Russian influences
- rank0 4y ago
  I see what you’re saying but now huge portions of the country and it’s infrastructure are literal rubble atm.
- roflc0ptic 4y ago
  > So not really different to what it was before. The hyperbole here. Functioning infrastructure + corruption is a lot better than destroyed infrastructure + corruption
ilyt 4y ago
There is no honest negotiation with Russia. They have proven it over and over again. Their assumption was that world would just let them do what they want as they did with Crimea, and that previous mistake is direct reason for current situation.
- rank0 4y ago
  This mentality is was created the Cold War and has cause immense international damage throughout history. I’m no fan of the Russian federation, but they have legitimate security concerns regarding nato expansion. We’ve been actively destabilizing the region for decades so they probably say the same thing about us. Do we really want to go back to perpetual proxy wars with our adversaries?
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > This mentality is was created the Cold War and has cause immense international damage throughout history. This mentality is born from reality, Russia has agreed before to never even threaten Ukraines sovereignty, let alone actually invade. Russia does not care about agreements, or treaties, or anything, all Russia cares about is what Russia wants. > I’m no fan of the Russian federation, but they have legitimate security concerns regarding nato expansion. Russia has legitimate security concerns regarding a defensive alliance expanding closer and closer to them?. If thats the case maybe they should stop invading countries, Ukraines not the first, and unfortunately may not be the last. NATO expansion is largely born closer to Russia from Russian imperialism(in the least for the last two members). > Do we really want to go back to perpetual proxy wars with our adversaries? Or Russia could not invade Ukraine and not openly call to end it as a country altogether?.
    - naasking 4y ago
      > NATO expansion is largely born closer to Russia from Russian imperialism(in the least for the last two members). Sure, and before that? NATO has been expanding since the USSR fell.
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        > Sure, and before that? NATO has been expanding since the USSR fell. The year the USSR fell, the Russians invaded Georgia. So conveniently, Russian imperialism has existed since practically as soon as Russia existed. Maybe if Russia stopped invading countries that used to be in the USSR NATO would stop expanding. But it's clear that they cannot help themselves and they clearly believe they have a right to try and conquer these counties.

by rank0 4y ago

kybernetyk 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago
As is/was most post USRR countries. It's a national disease that's hard to heal, and it was also kept there by the Russian influences
rank0 4y ago
I see what you’re saying but now huge portions of the country and it’s infrastructure are literal rubble atm.
roflc0ptic 4y ago
> So not really different to what it was before. The hyperbole here. Functioning infrastructure + corruption is a lot better than destroyed infrastructure + corruption

ilyt 4y ago

There is no honest negotiation with Russia. They have proven it over and over again. Their assumption was that world would just let them do what they want as they did with Crimea, and that previous mistake is direct reason for current situation.

rank0 4y ago
This mentality is was created the Cold War and has cause immense international damage throughout history. I’m no fan of the Russian federation, but they have legitimate security concerns regarding nato expansion. We’ve been actively destabilizing the region for decades so they probably say the same thing about us. Do we really want to go back to perpetual proxy wars with our adversaries?
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > This mentality is was created the Cold War and has cause immense international damage throughout history. This mentality is born from reality, Russia has agreed before to never even threaten Ukraines sovereignty, let alone actually invade. Russia does not care about agreements, or treaties, or anything, all Russia cares about is what Russia wants. > I’m no fan of the Russian federation, but they have legitimate security concerns regarding nato expansion. Russia has legitimate security concerns regarding a defensive alliance expanding closer and closer to them?. If thats the case maybe they should stop invading countries, Ukraines not the first, and unfortunately may not be the last. NATO expansion is largely born closer to Russia from Russian imperialism(in the least for the last two members). > Do we really want to go back to perpetual proxy wars with our adversaries? Or Russia could not invade Ukraine and not openly call to end it as a country altogether?.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > NATO expansion is largely born closer to Russia from Russian imperialism(in the least for the last two members). Sure, and before that? NATO has been expanding since the USSR fell.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Sure, and before that? NATO has been expanding since the USSR fell. The year the USSR fell, the Russians invaded Georgia. So conveniently, Russian imperialism has existed since practically as soon as Russia existed. Maybe if Russia stopped invading countries that used to be in the USSR NATO would stop expanding. But it's clear that they cannot help themselves and they clearly believe they have a right to try and conquer these counties.