4 ms·

I suspect it has more to do with a sense of ownership and community than any fines. US Americans tend to live in their homes, while in many other places people

I suspect it has more to do with a sense of ownership and community than any fines. US Americans tend to live in their homes, while in many other places people live in their city. It's a natural consequence of American individualism.

isoprophlex 4y ago
Well maybe, but the fines are just really steep. Rotterdam, the Netherlands: if you leave a trash bag on the street, inspectors will go through the trash to find identifiable information. The fine is 300+ EUR. The system pays for itself. Edit: I looked it up, they've changed it to a three-strike system. 125/250 for the first two; your choice of 500 or 3 days community service (cleaning up litter) on the third strike.
dilyevsky 4y ago
> US Americans tend to live in their homes, while in many other places people live in their city. American cities generally have more of these problems than the burbs so this line of reasoning doesn't work irl. Also you just haven't seen those fines. Doesn't matter what your sense of community is, once dem fines start rolling in you will NOT litter.
- Dah00n 4y ago
  I'm not OP but I'm pretty sure the argument is that Americans (even in the city) lives less in the city and more in their homes - comparably.
- nibbleshifter 4y ago
  I think you misunderstood OP. For European city dwellers, "where you live" and a sense of "ownership" extends far beyond the walls of your apartment/home - to incorporate your neighborhood to some extent. For a lot of US folks in cities, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, that's what I got from the post.
  - astrange 4y ago
    The post is wrong though. Tokyo isn't a nice city because Japanese people are mystically polite to each other, it's nice because it has good policies which you can copy yourself.
    - stephenbez 4y ago
      It is because of the culture of the Japanese people. In the World Cup and other stadiums they pick up all their trash when they leave and leave it pristine. They don’t have to worry about fines in the stadium. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/sportskind/2022/11/28/japanese-soccer-fans-leave-stadiums-spotless-fifa-world-cup/10791436002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/sportskind/2022/11/28/...
      - astrange 4y ago
        They are rather polite, but they also have good residential trash pickup. In this case, anyway. It's actually pretty difficult to get rid of some things, so people can build up a lot of junk at home - Marie Kondo's books in Japan actually have extra sections on how to get rid of it.
    - hackeraccount 4y ago
      Maybe. It's equally possible that any particular policy won't stand by itself. That for the garbage policy to work you also need some large number of other policies that are endogenous to Japan.
  - dilyevsky 4y ago
    Rereading it I guess I did. Still not sure it’s true though. I largely consider this American individuality to be a myth
TapWaterBandit 4y ago
It'll be the fines. Trust me, econonomic incentives work. No one wants to eat $300-500 fine regularly.
kelnos 4y ago
I suspect it also has to do with the possibility that someone in the US who is antisocial enough to dump their trash in the street might also be armed and not afraid to chase you at gunpoint if you try to toss their trash back on their front porch... if you're lucky, that is; decent chance they'll just shoot you.
- b112 4y ago
  if you're lucky, that is; decent chance they'll just shoot you. This is made up gibberish IMO, and it is the real, actual problem. No, you won't get shot. America ... land of submit to the imagined bully. (How else can this concept be viewed?)
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    > This is made up gibberish IMO, and it is the real, actual problem. No, you won't get shot. The legal basis for that theory, "stand your ground laws", are suspected to lead to ~700 additional shooting killings each year [1]. In a state with these laws on the book, any neighbor's land has to be viewed as potentially deadly hostile. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/21/stand-your-ground-research-homicides/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/21/stand-your-...
    - b112 4y ago
      Stand your ground laws, do not make it legal for someone to run out of their house, shooting at people, if they see them approaching their front door. They also do not make it legal for you to pursue someone either. They have to do with retreating from an assault. Again, this is just another excuse, and part of the problem. The more Americans view interaction through this lens, the worse they are for it.
      - Dah00n 4y ago
        You are both correct. That is the way the law is written but it also does cause more deaths.
helloworld11 4y ago
Where do people keep getting these absurd ideas about "american Individualism" being the root fault of so many problems? No, dirty cities are not caused by American individualism. They're caused by a mix of factors that can vary enormously from one place to another and are present all over the world, not just in the U.S. Have you even traveled much across this huge and deeply diverse country? Or do you just stereotype and generalize by pulling assumptions out of thin air? There are also many, many very clean communities in the United States, and many people or groups of people who despite loving their personal freedoms and individualism, also take community spirit very seriously in many ways. The country has been famous for this for centuries. Goddam how simplistic some of the U.S bashing on this site can be, much of it based on incredible levels of ignorance and caricaturesque notions from people who don't even live in the country. Many of them Europeans too, who should know a bit better about avoiding stupid stereotypes and simplistic depictions of complex cultures.
- chmod775 4y ago
  > Have you even traveled much across this huge and deeply diverse country? Is this post a travel ad? Do we pretend cities are overwhelmingly clean just because places like Dallas also exist? Are people supposed to first take selfies in NY and Philly, in Chicago, SF, LA, and Phoenix, to be permitted to say they're dirty? Maybe on average it's not so bad, but "this place is diverse therefore the opposite is true" is worse than anecdata. > Goddam how simplistic some of the U.S bashing on this site can be, Nobody is bashing the states. And nobody said American individualism is all bad. > Or do you just stereotype and generalize by pulling assumptions out of thin air? Is individualism -> not my problem really a bad explanation? Even when people to try to explain why their hometown in the US is clean it usually starts with "no walled enclaves here/people don't live in little castles". I think you might taking issue with the assumption that American cities are dirty in the first place, not my attempt at explaining it? It's hard to tell since most of your post is you being upset with me, making accusations, very little substance.
  - andrewflnr 4y ago
    > "this place is diverse therefore the opposite is true" This is an obvious strawman. The point is "this place is diverse, so any widely general statement about it is likely to be false".

isoprophlex 4y ago

Well maybe, but the fines are just really steep. Rotterdam, the Netherlands: if you leave a trash bag on the street, inspectors will go through the trash to find identifiable information. The fine is 300+ EUR. The system pays for itself. Edit: I looked it up, they've changed it to a three-strike system. 125/250 for the first two; your choice of 500 or 3 days community service (cleaning up litter) on the third strike.

dilyevsky 4y ago

> US Americans tend to live in their homes, while in many other places people live in their city. American cities generally have more of these problems than the burbs so this line of reasoning doesn't work irl. Also you just haven't seen those fines. Doesn't matter what your sense of community is, once dem fines start rolling in you will NOT litter.

Dah00n 4y ago
I'm not OP but I'm pretty sure the argument is that Americans (even in the city) lives less in the city and more in their homes - comparably.
nibbleshifter 4y ago
I think you misunderstood OP. For European city dwellers, "where you live" and a sense of "ownership" extends far beyond the walls of your apartment/home - to incorporate your neighborhood to some extent. For a lot of US folks in cities, this doesn't seem to be the case. At least, that's what I got from the post.
- astrange 4y ago
  The post is wrong though. Tokyo isn't a nice city because Japanese people are mystically polite to each other, it's nice because it has good policies which you can copy yourself.
  - stephenbez 4y ago
    It is because of the culture of the Japanese people. In the World Cup and other stadiums they pick up all their trash when they leave and leave it pristine. They don’t have to worry about fines in the stadium. https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/sportskind/2022/11/28/japanese-soccer-fans-leave-stadiums-spotless-fifa-world-cup/10791436002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/sportskind/2022/11/28/...
    - astrange 4y ago
      They are rather polite, but they also have good residential trash pickup. In this case, anyway. It's actually pretty difficult to get rid of some things, so people can build up a lot of junk at home - Marie Kondo's books in Japan actually have extra sections on how to get rid of it.
  - hackeraccount 4y ago
    Maybe. It's equally possible that any particular policy won't stand by itself. That for the garbage policy to work you also need some large number of other policies that are endogenous to Japan.
- dilyevsky 4y ago
  Rereading it I guess I did. Still not sure it’s true though. I largely consider this American individuality to be a myth

TapWaterBandit 4y ago

It'll be the fines. Trust me, econonomic incentives work. No one wants to eat $300-500 fine regularly.

kelnos 4y ago

I suspect it also has to do with the possibility that someone in the US who is antisocial enough to dump their trash in the street might also be armed and not afraid to chase you at gunpoint if you try to toss their trash back on their front porch... if you're lucky, that is; decent chance they'll just shoot you.

b112 4y ago
if you're lucky, that is; decent chance they'll just shoot you. This is made up gibberish IMO, and it is the real, actual problem. No, you won't get shot. America ... land of submit to the imagined bully. (How else can this concept be viewed?)
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > This is made up gibberish IMO, and it is the real, actual problem. No, you won't get shot. The legal basis for that theory, "stand your ground laws", are suspected to lead to ~700 additional shooting killings each year [1]. In a state with these laws on the book, any neighbor's land has to be viewed as potentially deadly hostile. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/21/stand-your-ground-research-homicides/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/02/21/stand-your-...
  - b112 4y ago
    Stand your ground laws, do not make it legal for someone to run out of their house, shooting at people, if they see them approaching their front door. They also do not make it legal for you to pursue someone either. They have to do with retreating from an assault. Again, this is just another excuse, and part of the problem. The more Americans view interaction through this lens, the worse they are for it.
    - Dah00n 4y ago
      You are both correct. That is the way the law is written but it also does cause more deaths.

helloworld11 4y ago

Where do people keep getting these absurd ideas about "american Individualism" being the root fault of so many problems? No, dirty cities are not caused by American individualism. They're caused by a mix of factors that can vary enormously from one place to another and are present all over the world, not just in the U.S. Have you even traveled much across this huge and deeply diverse country? Or do you just stereotype and generalize by pulling assumptions out of thin air? There are also many, many very clean communities in the United States, and many people or groups of people who despite loving their personal freedoms and individualism, also take community spirit very seriously in many ways. The country has been famous for this for centuries. Goddam how simplistic some of the U.S bashing on this site can be, much of it based on incredible levels of ignorance and caricaturesque notions from people who don't even live in the country. Many of them Europeans too, who should know a bit better about avoiding stupid stereotypes and simplistic depictions of complex cultures.

chmod775 4y ago
> Have you even traveled much across this huge and deeply diverse country? Is this post a travel ad? Do we pretend cities are overwhelmingly clean just because places like Dallas also exist? Are people supposed to first take selfies in NY and Philly, in Chicago, SF, LA, and Phoenix, to be permitted to say they're dirty? Maybe on average it's not so bad, but "this place is diverse therefore the opposite is true" is worse than anecdata. > Goddam how simplistic some of the U.S bashing on this site can be, Nobody is bashing the states. And nobody said American individualism is all bad. > Or do you just stereotype and generalize by pulling assumptions out of thin air? Is individualism -> not my problem really a bad explanation? Even when people to try to explain why their hometown in the US is clean it usually starts with "no walled enclaves here/people don't live in little castles". I think you might taking issue with the assumption that American cities are dirty in the first place, not my attempt at explaining it? It's hard to tell since most of your post is you being upset with me, making accusations, very little substance.
- andrewflnr 4y ago
  > "this place is diverse therefore the opposite is true" This is an obvious strawman. The point is "this place is diverse, so any widely general statement about it is likely to be false".