4 ms·

This is not the first time I have seen a question like this asked on HN. It's generally really controversial to ask it because trans individuals are fighting fo

This is not the first time I have seen a question like this asked on HN. It's generally really controversial to ask it because trans individuals are fighting for recognition, rights and humane treatment at the most basic level, so it generally gets taken as a means to be dismissive and attack their cause rather than helpful and suggesting a possible alternative path for at least some trans individuals. The world has changed quite a lot in recent decades in ways that have substantial impact on how much info is available, how much an individual can explore their own internal identity and myriad other things and it's unfortunately mostly not talked about in those terms. We also pass out medicalized labels for all kinds of things that used to be handled differently. A child who might have been labeled shy at one time might get diagnosed with selective mutism these days and receive an IEP at school for it. It's a really complicated topic. This is a big forum. It's not really a question that's likely to get meaningfully hashed out here in some good faith fashion that has some hope of moving things forward, either scientifically or in terms of human rights. If you are seriously curious about this, I suggest you explore it more quietly than tossing out questions on a front page post on HN. It's not that such questions cannot be asked and explored, it's just this is a really tough way to do it and have it go good places.

jesterson 4y ago
I tend to respectfully disagree. Same question is of my interest as well and I find local community to be well openminded compared to other online communities where raising this kind of question will be widely perceived as offence to vocal trans community. That's one of many spaces where we can openly bring it up and respectfully discuss. It's quite difficult to explore the topic on your own without hearing other people.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I have no idea what you are disagreeing with. Could you clarify what exactly you are arguing against in what I have said?
  - jesterson 4y ago
    You suggest to explore the topic more quietly, which is something I am opposed to.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      You are opposed to people reading whatever they so desire privately, talking to people in smaller groups where controversy has a tendency to be less problematic and where one may have more hope of being understood and engaged on the points one intended to make instead of on points other people imagined you made that never crossed your mind, asking questions on HN under circumstances where there is less likelihood of strong pushback merely for asking? Why? In my experience, that's how one typically finds good info and meaningful feedback and does so with less pain than can be involved in standing on a big stage in front of everyone with a bullhorn and blaring their "controversial" supposed "position" to the world, knowing the world will scream back, often without making any real effort to understand what was actually said -- or so it can feel on the receiving end.
      - jesterson 4y ago
        Right. Personally I am open to any discussions as it is the only way known so far to explore and understand other people. Certainly there may and probably will be some pushback and some people may get offended along the way. And that's alright. It shouldn't be the reason for censoring or shunning any topics. Nowadays we have growing share of people in society who are offended with anything and it's a sign of immaturity, not a healthy discussion. Adults on the contrary, are called adults because among other things they can look at stuff and openly discuss everything, particularly things that may not portray them well. Shunning discussion because it can hurt someone leads to large misunderstanding on subjects and multiplies weird beliefs that have nothing to do with reality.
        DoreenMichele 4y ago
        I wasn't talking about censoring or shunning anything. I also wasn't telling you, in specific, what to do. It was a good faith suggestion of best practices based on substantial experience with being very controversial and trying to find a path forward on my interests under circumstances where my willingness to debate, my ability to be thick-skinned and so forth were not getting me the desired results and were coming at an excessive cost.
antiatheist 4y ago
If it's controversial why should it be relegated to back pages? The front page is the perfect place for such communication, the lack of truly social discourse and individualistic isolation is what creates such reactionary tension while trying to reconcile all the distortions in the zeitgeist of the world. I think mental stressors of such social failure is whats leading to such childish ideas that adults seem to preoccupy their lives with today, and environmental pollution is definitely contributing to bringing those about.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  If it's controversial why should it be relegated to back pages? I didn't suggest it should be. I will note that so far I have two replies, both nominally "arguing against" my supposed "position" here. Both strike me as a wild misinterpretation of what I have said. And that's exactly why tossing out questions or comments on a front page post on a large forum can be problematic. Which isn't to say one should never do such. But it's frequently not exactly gratifying.
ironmagma 4y ago
If you ever need an example of “chilling”, just reread that last paragraph. HN front page is a great place to discuss these issues; there are lots of thoughtful and intelligent minds to iterate on an answer.

jesterson 4y ago

I tend to respectfully disagree. Same question is of my interest as well and I find local community to be well openminded compared to other online communities where raising this kind of question will be widely perceived as offence to vocal trans community. That's one of many spaces where we can openly bring it up and respectfully discuss. It's quite difficult to explore the topic on your own without hearing other people.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
I have no idea what you are disagreeing with. Could you clarify what exactly you are arguing against in what I have said?
- jesterson 4y ago
  You suggest to explore the topic more quietly, which is something I am opposed to.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    You are opposed to people reading whatever they so desire privately, talking to people in smaller groups where controversy has a tendency to be less problematic and where one may have more hope of being understood and engaged on the points one intended to make instead of on points other people imagined you made that never crossed your mind, asking questions on HN under circumstances where there is less likelihood of strong pushback merely for asking? Why? In my experience, that's how one typically finds good info and meaningful feedback and does so with less pain than can be involved in standing on a big stage in front of everyone with a bullhorn and blaring their "controversial" supposed "position" to the world, knowing the world will scream back, often without making any real effort to understand what was actually said -- or so it can feel on the receiving end.
    - jesterson 4y ago
      Right. Personally I am open to any discussions as it is the only way known so far to explore and understand other people. Certainly there may and probably will be some pushback and some people may get offended along the way. And that's alright. It shouldn't be the reason for censoring or shunning any topics. Nowadays we have growing share of people in society who are offended with anything and it's a sign of immaturity, not a healthy discussion. Adults on the contrary, are called adults because among other things they can look at stuff and openly discuss everything, particularly things that may not portray them well. Shunning discussion because it can hurt someone leads to large misunderstanding on subjects and multiplies weird beliefs that have nothing to do with reality.
      - DoreenMichele 4y ago
        I wasn't talking about censoring or shunning anything. I also wasn't telling you, in specific, what to do. It was a good faith suggestion of best practices based on substantial experience with being very controversial and trying to find a path forward on my interests under circumstances where my willingness to debate, my ability to be thick-skinned and so forth were not getting me the desired results and were coming at an excessive cost.

antiatheist 4y ago

If it's controversial why should it be relegated to back pages? The front page is the perfect place for such communication, the lack of truly social discourse and individualistic isolation is what creates such reactionary tension while trying to reconcile all the distortions in the zeitgeist of the world. I think mental stressors of such social failure is whats leading to such childish ideas that adults seem to preoccupy their lives with today, and environmental pollution is definitely contributing to bringing those about.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
If it's controversial why should it be relegated to back pages? I didn't suggest it should be. I will note that so far I have two replies, both nominally "arguing against" my supposed "position" here. Both strike me as a wild misinterpretation of what I have said. And that's exactly why tossing out questions or comments on a front page post on a large forum can be problematic. Which isn't to say one should never do such. But it's frequently not exactly gratifying.

ironmagma 4y ago

If you ever need an example of “chilling”, just reread that last paragraph. HN front page is a great place to discuss these issues; there are lots of thoughtful and intelligent minds to iterate on an answer.