7 ms·

What’s the problem with school choice?

endisneigh 4y ago
There’s no inherent problem. Usually opponents create hypothetical scenarios in which corrupt entities funnel money away from public schools, which is a valid concern, but isn’t an inherent property of school choice.
duxup 4y ago
Hard to ”choose” a good school if you’re in an area with no good schools? Drive your kid across town, when you’re already poor?
- zubiaur 4y ago
  Been there, was worth it
  - duxup 4y ago
    Not an option for everyone.
    - zubiaur 4y ago
      Exactly! Not even for those who want it, and wold be willing to make the effort.
    - imgabe 4y ago
      Nothing is an option for everyone. Must we always deny opportunities to everyone because there’s some person who can’t take advantage of it?
      - duxup 4y ago
        Education should not be denied.
        imgabe 4y ago
        School choice doesn’t deny anyone anything. With no choice you get whatever school your district is and that’s it. With school choice you can go somewhere else, but you still have the same option you had before. Nobody is being denied anything.
        duxup 4y ago
        If you can’t access a good school because of distance you’re being denied an education.
        imgabe 4y ago
        If you can’t access a good school now because the one in your district is bad is that not also being denied an education? Under choice fewer people would be denied an education by your definition.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Great that it was worth it for you, the discussion is about the difficulty of the task not the value
    - zubiaur 4y ago
      No choice makes something difficult impossible.
tlear 4y ago
Parents dump the schools with teachers who are members of the union. Union has less money to pay the politicians of a certain party. Of course boards also get paid per student head, student who goes to a school that is not part of that farm (charter, private whatever..) is not bringing in the cash. It is pretty straightforward economic self interest. I can recommend Sowell's book "Charter schools and their enemies" it lays out the setup quite well.
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  Literally no parent thinks “What I really want is a union busting school.” That’s not even a top 10000 concern. Did I send my oldest kid to a charter school? Yeah, for one year. It was a bunch of Teach for America grads that warehoused the kids in front of computers for hours at a time, no PE, and sent kindergartens to detention. (Wtf?!) So why did we choose this school? One reason: All day kindergarten. We had no idea how bad the school was actually run until like a quarter or two into it. Fuck Rocketship Schools.
  - FeloniousHam 4y ago
    My son goes to a charter school. I have the exact opposite experience: small school, small class sizes, passionate teachers/administrators, strict dress and phone policies, involved parents. There are downsides, small population = fewer extracurricular activities, with less participation (esp. sports).
    - jonathankoren 4y ago
      Well, we get all those things except a dress code at the regular public school, but with extracurriculars.
supertrope 4y ago
In theory parents gain access to a better school to enroll their kids and bad schools bleed enrollment. It's not a magic solution to under-performing schools. And when it does deliver results it does so by undermining the "public" part of public schools. It increases time and transportation costs. Some parents prefer that the local school be improved instead of replacing it. Alternatives like charter schools use selective admission. When you don't have to accept disabled, non-English speaking, or misbehaving kids it's easy to show higher test scores, graduation rates, and post-graduation outcomes. This leaves the public schools with the bottom of the barrel students. The death spiral is complete once public schools no longer enroll a cross section of the area they serve and only function as a welfare service. Everyone wants the best for themselves and their kid. That means buying housing in the best district they can afford. Once they're in they don't want lower socioeconomic status people to move into their neighborhood or the district to annex poor areas.
themitigating 4y ago
Religious education
lokar 4y ago
They weaken public schools in exchange for a benefit most poor families can’t use.
HDThoreaun 4y ago
All the students with uninterested parents end up in the same school have poor outcomes. These are the students that need the most help to succeed but school choice gives them the least. I don't want people like that in society, higher rates of criminality and lower useful output. Things work better when everyone works together.

There’s no inherent problem. Usually opponents create hypothetical scenarios in which corrupt entities funnel money away from public schools, which is a valid concern, but isn’t an inherent property of school choice.

duxup 4y ago

Hard to ”choose” a good school if you’re in an area with no good schools? Drive your kid across town, when you’re already poor?

zubiaur 4y ago
Been there, was worth it
- duxup 4y ago
  Not an option for everyone.
  - zubiaur 4y ago
    Exactly! Not even for those who want it, and wold be willing to make the effort.
  - imgabe 4y ago
    Nothing is an option for everyone. Must we always deny opportunities to everyone because there’s some person who can’t take advantage of it?
    - duxup 4y ago
      Education should not be denied.
      - imgabe 4y ago
        School choice doesn’t deny anyone anything. With no choice you get whatever school your district is and that’s it. With school choice you can go somewhere else, but you still have the same option you had before. Nobody is being denied anything.
        duxup 4y ago
        If you can’t access a good school because of distance you’re being denied an education.
        imgabe 4y ago
        If you can’t access a good school now because the one in your district is bad is that not also being denied an education? Under choice fewer people would be denied an education by your definition.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Great that it was worth it for you, the discussion is about the difficulty of the task not the value
  - zubiaur 4y ago
    No choice makes something difficult impossible.

tlear 4y ago

Parents dump the schools with teachers who are members of the union. Union has less money to pay the politicians of a certain party. Of course boards also get paid per student head, student who goes to a school that is not part of that farm (charter, private whatever..) is not bringing in the cash. It is pretty straightforward economic self interest. I can recommend Sowell's book "Charter schools and their enemies" it lays out the setup quite well.

jonathankoren 4y ago
Literally no parent thinks “What I really want is a union busting school.” That’s not even a top 10000 concern. Did I send my oldest kid to a charter school? Yeah, for one year. It was a bunch of Teach for America grads that warehoused the kids in front of computers for hours at a time, no PE, and sent kindergartens to detention. (Wtf?!) So why did we choose this school? One reason: All day kindergarten. We had no idea how bad the school was actually run until like a quarter or two into it. Fuck Rocketship Schools.
- FeloniousHam 4y ago
  My son goes to a charter school. I have the exact opposite experience: small school, small class sizes, passionate teachers/administrators, strict dress and phone policies, involved parents. There are downsides, small population = fewer extracurricular activities, with less participation (esp. sports).
  - jonathankoren 4y ago
    Well, we get all those things except a dress code at the regular public school, but with extracurriculars.

supertrope 4y ago

In theory parents gain access to a better school to enroll their kids and bad schools bleed enrollment. It's not a magic solution to under-performing schools. And when it does deliver results it does so by undermining the "public" part of public schools. It increases time and transportation costs. Some parents prefer that the local school be improved instead of replacing it. Alternatives like charter schools use selective admission. When you don't have to accept disabled, non-English speaking, or misbehaving kids it's easy to show higher test scores, graduation rates, and post-graduation outcomes. This leaves the public schools with the bottom of the barrel students. The death spiral is complete once public schools no longer enroll a cross section of the area they serve and only function as a welfare service. Everyone wants the best for themselves and their kid. That means buying housing in the best district they can afford. Once they're in they don't want lower socioeconomic status people to move into their neighborhood or the district to annex poor areas.

themitigating 4y ago

Religious education

lokar 4y ago

They weaken public schools in exchange for a benefit most poor families can’t use.

HDThoreaun 4y ago

All the students with uninterested parents end up in the same school have poor outcomes. These are the students that need the most help to succeed but school choice gives them the least. I don't want people like that in society, higher rates of criminality and lower useful output. Things work better when everyone works together.