11 ms·

One thing that I'm genuinely curious about that I've never heard addressed is whether the large increase of people identifying as trans(trans women in particula

One thing that I'm genuinely curious about that I've never heard addressed is whether the large increase of people identifying as trans(trans women in particular) could be related to the same factors that are causing lowered sperm counts and testosterone in men. There are massive amounts of compounds in our environment that are endocrine disrupters or mimic sex hormones like estrogen. Like maybe many persons assumed to be trans could be people affected by the same environmental contaminants or other factors that are behind those and that's why they end up feeling different than typical for their sex? Maybe they would even benefit more from hormone treatments in the opposite direction than the "gender affirming" treatments. How do we know we need to affirm their gender feelings instead of treat their medical problems? I haven't heard anyone in any public forum try to explain in good faith why or why not explanations other than what they feel being completely natural might be the case.

flippinburgers 4y ago
I think the simpler explanation is that young kids are doing something they see as trendy, popular, and supported to such an absurd degree that you immediately get internet points and patted on the back for doing literally nothing.
csomar 4y ago
No. Trans people have existed for quite a long time. It just happens that the "West" has become more accepting of them, and since it is the "West" that gets most of the media attention it's looking like a new thing with them coming out.
- yarg 4y ago
  Proving the existence of noise does not prove the non-existence of a signal.
- danielscrubs 4y ago
  Maybe because we have more trans people we get more accepting and not the other way around? Just a thought, correlation is not causation and all that.
- polio 4y ago
  These things are not mutually exclusive. I don't see any evidence that would justify a high degree of confidence that the person you're replying to is wrong.
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    The extraordinary claim is the top comment: that trans people are exploding in count vs it being a repressed demographic. It is the obligation of THAT person to provide evidence, since they are making the claim that it is some "evil toxin in the environment".
    - polio 4y ago
      Nobody has said that the population is exploding or that there is an evil toxin. The evidence here is for a proliferation of endocrine disrupting compounds. Given that gender expression is affected by hormones, I don't see how the claim is extraordinary.
- faximile 4y ago
  Why is the "West" in quotes? Typically authors use that to refer to a phrase they're replying to, but parent comment doesn't mention that. Alternatively, quotes are sometimes used in a dismissive manner, but it would be unusual for an author to be dismissive of a word and yet find value in introducing it into a conversation.
janef0421 4y ago
It might be the case that endocrine disruptors may be increasing the likelihood a person is trans, but what you are proposing is almost certainly incorrect and would not work. Using sex-aligned hormones to cause a person to become cisgender is sometimes tried and does not appear to be effective, and I am not aware of any evidence that transgender people's pre-transition hormone levels are substantially lower than their cisgender peers. Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case; Similarly for men who have their testosterone suppressed as part of cancer treatment.
- faximile 4y ago
  > Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case; Similarly for men who have their testosterone suppressed as part of cancer treatment. Could that be explained by the unfortunate lack of trans acceptance?
  - janef0421 4y ago
    Maybe, but I find that unlikely, particularly for eunuchs; Being a Eunuch is arguably more socially stigmatised than being a transsexual.
- TexanFeller 4y ago
  > Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case Not necessarily, there are other possibilities, for example the mechanism might not be lack of male hormones, but elevated female hormones, or environmental contaminant analogs thereof.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    If true, it would likely be much more complicated than simply hormone levels. Many trans people have their hormones tested before HRT[1] to establish a baseline and then again after starting to dial in the correct dosage. If it were that simple, baseline testing would reveal it en mass. The hormone panel is typically T,E1,E2, but human hormonal pathways are complex[2] and not fully understood. There are, for examples, hypotheses involving "backdoor" pathways that should/could be verified, but aren't due to lack of research funding directed toward an admittedly small group of people. 1. That's not to say all or even most, but it is very very common. 2. https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/WikiJournal_of_Medicine/Diagram_of_the_pathways_of_human_steroidogenesis#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/WikiJournal_of_Medicine/Diag...
maxsilver 4y ago
> the large increase of people identifying as trans(trans women in particular) Well, that's not quite accurate. (a) there isn't a large increase of trans people, historically speaking, just folks being more open and honest about their status recently, since it's become marginally less punished in a few specific places, than it has been prior, and (b) in recent years, trans men or transmasc folks are the largest group of those new influx, not trans women. > There are massive amounts of compounds in our environment that are endocrine disrupters or mimic sex hormones like estrogen If people were getting estrogen in the environment that they didn't want in any amount meaningful enough to effect them, you'd wouldn't expect to see more trans women (trans women, generally speaking, are usually deficient in estrogen), you'd expect to see more dysphoric men. You'd expect to see a sharp increase in cis men presenting with ED and gynecomastia and such. (Which, to be fair, is a thing we're seeing. But so far, appears to be mainly linked to increasing obesity rates) > Maybe they would even benefit more from hormone treatments in the opposite direction than the "gender affirming" treatments. This is barbaric if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. So barbaric in fact, that it's been outlawed in many nations -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy for more info
- SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
  Additionally, as trans people are more accepted the rate of the increasing population of trans people is slowing. This suggests that it’s stabilizing and that the population would normally always have a % of trans people if it weren’t for oppression (like left handed ness rapidly increased in the generation we stopped punishing people with left handedness and then it leveled off)
- brailsafe 4y ago
  > You'd expect to see a sharp increase in cis men presenting with ED and gynecomastia and such. It does feel like I've seen more men with more than just regular moobs, who aren't necessarily otherwise severely obese. The trans women I know have less shapely breasts even though they're deliberately taking hormones, and it's a bit bizarre. Not a huge amount, but enough to notice. I'd be willing to believe also that there's a contingent of those that are trans men too, but I just mean it's actually more bizarre to see someone who is otherwise just a cis man with like C or D cups
bigbacaloa 4y ago
This is joe rogan level speculative nonsense.
- ccn0p 4y ago
  To be fair, so is your dismissive statement in calling it nonsense. Maybe expand on that? I for one have thought the same thing many times and am finding the conversation here quite interesting.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
This is not the first time I have seen a question like this asked on HN. It's generally really controversial to ask it because trans individuals are fighting for recognition, rights and humane treatment at the most basic level, so it generally gets taken as a means to be dismissive and attack their cause rather than helpful and suggesting a possible alternative path for at least some trans individuals. The world has changed quite a lot in recent decades in ways that have substantial impact on how much info is available, how much an individual can explore their own internal identity and myriad other things and it's unfortunately mostly not talked about in those terms. We also pass out medicalized labels for all kinds of things that used to be handled differently. A child who might have been labeled shy at one time might get diagnosed with selective mutism these days and receive an IEP at school for it. It's a really complicated topic. This is a big forum. It's not really a question that's likely to get meaningfully hashed out here in some good faith fashion that has some hope of moving things forward, either scientifically or in terms of human rights. If you are seriously curious about this, I suggest you explore it more quietly than tossing out questions on a front page post on HN. It's not that such questions cannot be asked and explored, it's just this is a really tough way to do it and have it go good places.
- jesterson 4y ago
  I tend to respectfully disagree. Same question is of my interest as well and I find local community to be well openminded compared to other online communities where raising this kind of question will be widely perceived as offence to vocal trans community. That's one of many spaces where we can openly bring it up and respectfully discuss. It's quite difficult to explore the topic on your own without hearing other people.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I have no idea what you are disagreeing with. Could you clarify what exactly you are arguing against in what I have said?
    - jesterson 4y ago
amake 4y ago
(Back in 1920) "One thing that I'm genuinely curious about that I've never heard addressed is whether the large increase of people identifying as left-handed could be related to the same factors that are causing ..." https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1410339332477517826 https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1410339332477517826

flippinburgers 4y ago

I think the simpler explanation is that young kids are doing something they see as trendy, popular, and supported to such an absurd degree that you immediately get internet points and patted on the back for doing literally nothing.

csomar 4y ago

No. Trans people have existed for quite a long time. It just happens that the "West" has become more accepting of them, and since it is the "West" that gets most of the media attention it's looking like a new thing with them coming out.

yarg 4y ago
Proving the existence of noise does not prove the non-existence of a signal.
danielscrubs 4y ago
Maybe because we have more trans people we get more accepting and not the other way around? Just a thought, correlation is not causation and all that.
polio 4y ago
These things are not mutually exclusive. I don't see any evidence that would justify a high degree of confidence that the person you're replying to is wrong.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  The extraordinary claim is the top comment: that trans people are exploding in count vs it being a repressed demographic. It is the obligation of THAT person to provide evidence, since they are making the claim that it is some "evil toxin in the environment".
  - polio 4y ago
    Nobody has said that the population is exploding or that there is an evil toxin. The evidence here is for a proliferation of endocrine disrupting compounds. Given that gender expression is affected by hormones, I don't see how the claim is extraordinary.
faximile 4y ago
Why is the "West" in quotes? Typically authors use that to refer to a phrase they're replying to, but parent comment doesn't mention that. Alternatively, quotes are sometimes used in a dismissive manner, but it would be unusual for an author to be dismissive of a word and yet find value in introducing it into a conversation.

janef0421 4y ago

It might be the case that endocrine disruptors may be increasing the likelihood a person is trans, but what you are proposing is almost certainly incorrect and would not work. Using sex-aligned hormones to cause a person to become cisgender is sometimes tried and does not appear to be effective, and I am not aware of any evidence that transgender people's pre-transition hormone levels are substantially lower than their cisgender peers. Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case; Similarly for men who have their testosterone suppressed as part of cancer treatment.

faximile 4y ago
> Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case; Similarly for men who have their testosterone suppressed as part of cancer treatment. Could that be explained by the unfortunate lack of trans acceptance?
- janef0421 4y ago
  Maybe, but I find that unlikely, particularly for eunuchs; Being a Eunuch is arguably more socially stigmatised than being a transsexual.
TexanFeller 4y ago
> Also, this theory would suggest that eunuchs, self-identified men who voluntarily undergo gonad removal, would generally come to identify as women, but this is not the case Not necessarily, there are other possibilities, for example the mechanism might not be lack of male hormones, but elevated female hormones, or environmental contaminant analogs thereof.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  If true, it would likely be much more complicated than simply hormone levels. Many trans people have their hormones tested before HRT[1] to establish a baseline and then again after starting to dial in the correct dosage. If it were that simple, baseline testing would reveal it en mass. The hormone panel is typically T,E1,E2, but human hormonal pathways are complex[2] and not fully understood. There are, for examples, hypotheses involving "backdoor" pathways that should/could be verified, but aren't due to lack of research funding directed toward an admittedly small group of people. 1. That's not to say all or even most, but it is very very common. 2. https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/WikiJournal_of_Medicine/Diagram_of_the_pathways_of_human_steroidogenesis#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/WikiJournal_of_Medicine/Diag...

maxsilver 4y ago

> the large increase of people identifying as trans(trans women in particular) Well, that's not quite accurate. (a) there isn't a large increase of trans people, historically speaking, just folks being more open and honest about their status recently, since it's become marginally less punished in a few specific places, than it has been prior, and (b) in recent years, trans men or transmasc folks are the largest group of those new influx, not trans women. > There are massive amounts of compounds in our environment that are endocrine disrupters or mimic sex hormones like estrogen If people were getting estrogen in the environment that they didn't want in any amount meaningful enough to effect them, you'd wouldn't expect to see more trans women (trans women, generally speaking, are usually deficient in estrogen), you'd expect to see more dysphoric men. You'd expect to see a sharp increase in cis men presenting with ED and gynecomastia and such. (Which, to be fair, is a thing we're seeing. But so far, appears to be mainly linked to increasing obesity rates) > Maybe they would even benefit more from hormone treatments in the opposite direction than the "gender affirming" treatments. This is barbaric if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. So barbaric in fact, that it's been outlawed in many nations -- see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy for more info

SamoyedFurFluff 4y ago
Additionally, as trans people are more accepted the rate of the increasing population of trans people is slowing. This suggests that it’s stabilizing and that the population would normally always have a % of trans people if it weren’t for oppression (like left handed ness rapidly increased in the generation we stopped punishing people with left handedness and then it leveled off)
brailsafe 4y ago
> You'd expect to see a sharp increase in cis men presenting with ED and gynecomastia and such. It does feel like I've seen more men with more than just regular moobs, who aren't necessarily otherwise severely obese. The trans women I know have less shapely breasts even though they're deliberately taking hormones, and it's a bit bizarre. Not a huge amount, but enough to notice. I'd be willing to believe also that there's a contingent of those that are trans men too, but I just mean it's actually more bizarre to see someone who is otherwise just a cis man with like C or D cups

bigbacaloa 4y ago

This is joe rogan level speculative nonsense.

ccn0p 4y ago
To be fair, so is your dismissive statement in calling it nonsense. Maybe expand on that? I for one have thought the same thing many times and am finding the conversation here quite interesting.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

This is not the first time I have seen a question like this asked on HN. It's generally really controversial to ask it because trans individuals are fighting for recognition, rights and humane treatment at the most basic level, so it generally gets taken as a means to be dismissive and attack their cause rather than helpful and suggesting a possible alternative path for at least some trans individuals. The world has changed quite a lot in recent decades in ways that have substantial impact on how much info is available, how much an individual can explore their own internal identity and myriad other things and it's unfortunately mostly not talked about in those terms. We also pass out medicalized labels for all kinds of things that used to be handled differently. A child who might have been labeled shy at one time might get diagnosed with selective mutism these days and receive an IEP at school for it. It's a really complicated topic. This is a big forum. It's not really a question that's likely to get meaningfully hashed out here in some good faith fashion that has some hope of moving things forward, either scientifically or in terms of human rights. If you are seriously curious about this, I suggest you explore it more quietly than tossing out questions on a front page post on HN. It's not that such questions cannot be asked and explored, it's just this is a really tough way to do it and have it go good places.

jesterson 4y ago
I tend to respectfully disagree. Same question is of my interest as well and I find local community to be well openminded compared to other online communities where raising this kind of question will be widely perceived as offence to vocal trans community. That's one of many spaces where we can openly bring it up and respectfully discuss. It's quite difficult to explore the topic on your own without hearing other people.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I have no idea what you are disagreeing with. Could you clarify what exactly you are arguing against in what I have said?
  - jesterson 4y ago

amake 4y ago

(Back in 1920) "One thing that I'm genuinely curious about that I've never heard addressed is whether the large increase of people identifying as left-handed could be related to the same factors that are causing ..." https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1410339332477517826 https://twitter.com/ithayla/status/1410339332477517826