5 ms·

What you're thinking of are wire transfers. We have that already. You can argue that they need to be made faster (I agree), but V and MA aren't the reason why

by RC_ITR 4y ago

What you're thinking of are wire transfers. We have that already. You can argue that they need to be made faster (I agree), but V and MA aren't the reason why they're slow (banks being lazy and batching payments is). You may not like the logic, but the reason it was so easy for V and MA to cut porn is because the insane amount of porn chargebacks ("yeah I didn't make that purchase, it's fraud"). Crypto is just a wasteful overcomplicated bad solution that's worse than wire transfers, so I agree, let's work on visa-like payments on different rails with no fraud protections (so that way consumers can choose when they pay for that protection, rather than you and me subsidizing people who regret buying porn).

notch656a 4y ago
That's an interesting take. The actual transfer is the one big upside I see of crypto over wire. And remember 'wire' is not a currency, we're comparing transfers here not the suitability of a currency ('wire' as an independent concept has none). I've done many wire transfers and many crypto transfers and the one consistent thing I've found is the crypto transfers are both cheaper and faster. If I could do crypto transfers with old school stable currency (not some cheesy stablecoin hoodwinker in the Bahamas) it'd be the holy grail.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  FedNow instant payments?
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  >I've done many wire transfers and many crypto transfers and the one consistent thing I've found is the crypto transfers are both cheaper and faster. Don't fall into the trap of "current centralized system has problems, current decentralized system is different (in your opinion better), therefore decentralized is better" Centralized payments will always be faster/cheaper than decentralized, just from a first-principles architecture standpoint, so we should be working on making those better (cynically, we are, they just get less attention because retail investors can't speculate on those technologies as easily)
  - notch656a 4y ago
    "Better" is not a universal truth. It is dependent on the context of the individual transaction. If you simply refuse to acknowledge that crypto might be cheaper and/or faster than available traditional finance options for some particular transactions, not in the theoretical but in the real-word options present, then I simply yield that you must live in an alternate reality than many people. One thing I really hate is losing money and losing time, and the very narrow circumstances where I have used crypto to buy goods (legal goods) I sure as hell wasn't going through the pain in the ass of dealing with crypto for ideological reasons.
    - RC_ITR 4y ago
      >"Better" is not a universal truth. It is dependent on the context of the individual transaction. Where did I call anything better? >If you simply refuse to acknowledge that crypto might be cheaper and/or faster than available traditional finance options for some particular transactions, not in the theoretical but in the real-word options present, then I simply yield that you must live in an alternate reality than many people. Uhh, ok what transactions are currently cheaper using crypto? Don't you dare say Forex because you're wrong if you do. Then what are the ones you think could be cheaper and why?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
arcticbull 4y ago
I'm definitely not thinking of wire transfers, I'm thinking of credit cards. I want Visa and Mastercard to be required to process all legal payments. If that means certain classes of high-risk transactions have to be offered without certain protections, I think that's completely fair. > ... You can argue that they need to be made faster (I agree) Luckily that's already well under way. We should have RTP and FedNow next year. > ...rather than you and me subsidizing people who regret buying porn Good news! We're not, and at least in recent history we never were! :) Merchant acquirers charge high-risk merchants significantly more to cover chargeback risk. That risk isn't meaningfully transferred to your Costco run. While a Costco may pay 1-2% in interchange, your average adult video business may pay 10-12%. Sometimes more.
- RC_ITR 4y ago
  >I'm definitely not thinking of wire transfers, I'm thinking of credit cards. I want Visa and Mastercard to be required to process all legal payments. If that means certain classes of high-risk transactions have to be offered without certain protections, I think that's completely fair. So a few things. 1) A credit card is a consumer loan and by nature, there's plenty of limits on the things you can buy with loans (both crypto and fiat), so you're at a dead end there (and if it weren't Visa, it would be the bank extending you the loan that would ban the porn payment). 2) Given that, you probably are referring to debit cards in this case. Ok that's more of a dumb utility so let's run with it. What Visa does for debit (I implore you to learn more about this!) is serve as a messenger intermediary between your checking account and the merchant's account (plus they make sure the issuer gets their cut of fees, more on that later). Ultimately, they help the banks settle their accounts via inter-bank accounts. Banks themselves can/should do this! The government should force them to do this! But that's then just faster wire transfers (look at Europe). I mean I'm very happy to be wrong here, but you need to explain to me why Visa needs to be involved for a fraud-protection-free bank-to-bank transfer when everywhere else in the world just has that via wire transfers (which is just a fancy name for settling payments via inter-bank accounts) >Luckily that's already well under way. We should have RTP and FedNow next year. Yeah. >Good news! We're not, and at least in recent history we never were! :) Merchant acquirers charge high-risk merchants significantly more to cover chargeback risk. That risk isn't meaningfully transferred to your Costco run. While a Costco may pay 1-2% in interchange, your average adult video business may pay 10-12%. Sometimes more. Ok again so a few things. 1) You are citing the entire take rate on transactions but you're calling it the wrong thing. Interchange is the fee that's paid to the issuing bank; in the US this is, on average, 70% of the fee-rate you're citing (it is a rate set by Visa, but it is passed directly through to the issuing bank). Merchant Discount is the fee that the merchant acquirers get; in the US this is, on average, 15% of the fee-rate you're citing (but as you rightly point out, it can be anything since its a contract between a bank and a business for service). Network fees are the fees that Visa collects; in the US this is, on average, 15% of the fee-rate you're citing (Visa makes $30bn of revenue $10tn of transactions processed). Since it is acquirers who can choose to set their merchant discount at whatever they want, it is again a banking issue not a Visa issue (Visa doesn't even see the merchant discount) 2) Now that we understand who charges what to whom, you'll see that in fact, Visa does not charge a different rate for porn [1], they instead collect a pretty small fee on all transactions to support infrastructure that disproportionally serves porn users who regret buying porn. Sure sounds like a subsidy to me! So yeah anyway, faster wires. [1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-usa-interchange-reimbursement-fees.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-usa-in...

by RC_ITR 4y ago

notch656a 4y ago

That's an interesting take. The actual transfer is the one big upside I see of crypto over wire. And remember 'wire' is not a currency, we're comparing transfers here not the suitability of a currency ('wire' as an independent concept has none). I've done many wire transfers and many crypto transfers and the one consistent thing I've found is the crypto transfers are both cheaper and faster. If I could do crypto transfers with old school stable currency (not some cheesy stablecoin hoodwinker in the Bahamas) it'd be the holy grail.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
FedNow instant payments?
RC_ITR 4y ago
>I've done many wire transfers and many crypto transfers and the one consistent thing I've found is the crypto transfers are both cheaper and faster. Don't fall into the trap of "current centralized system has problems, current decentralized system is different (in your opinion better), therefore decentralized is better" Centralized payments will always be faster/cheaper than decentralized, just from a first-principles architecture standpoint, so we should be working on making those better (cynically, we are, they just get less attention because retail investors can't speculate on those technologies as easily)
- notch656a 4y ago
  "Better" is not a universal truth. It is dependent on the context of the individual transaction. If you simply refuse to acknowledge that crypto might be cheaper and/or faster than available traditional finance options for some particular transactions, not in the theoretical but in the real-word options present, then I simply yield that you must live in an alternate reality than many people. One thing I really hate is losing money and losing time, and the very narrow circumstances where I have used crypto to buy goods (legal goods) I sure as hell wasn't going through the pain in the ass of dealing with crypto for ideological reasons.
  - RC_ITR 4y ago
    >"Better" is not a universal truth. It is dependent on the context of the individual transaction. Where did I call anything better? >If you simply refuse to acknowledge that crypto might be cheaper and/or faster than available traditional finance options for some particular transactions, not in the theoretical but in the real-word options present, then I simply yield that you must live in an alternate reality than many people. Uhh, ok what transactions are currently cheaper using crypto? Don't you dare say Forex because you're wrong if you do. Then what are the ones you think could be cheaper and why?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

arcticbull 4y ago

I'm definitely not thinking of wire transfers, I'm thinking of credit cards. I want Visa and Mastercard to be required to process all legal payments. If that means certain classes of high-risk transactions have to be offered without certain protections, I think that's completely fair. > ... You can argue that they need to be made faster (I agree) Luckily that's already well under way. We should have RTP and FedNow next year. > ...rather than you and me subsidizing people who regret buying porn Good news! We're not, and at least in recent history we never were! :) Merchant acquirers charge high-risk merchants significantly more to cover chargeback risk. That risk isn't meaningfully transferred to your Costco run. While a Costco may pay 1-2% in interchange, your average adult video business may pay 10-12%. Sometimes more.

RC_ITR 4y ago
>I'm definitely not thinking of wire transfers, I'm thinking of credit cards. I want Visa and Mastercard to be required to process all legal payments. If that means certain classes of high-risk transactions have to be offered without certain protections, I think that's completely fair. So a few things. 1) A credit card is a consumer loan and by nature, there's plenty of limits on the things you can buy with loans (both crypto and fiat), so you're at a dead end there (and if it weren't Visa, it would be the bank extending you the loan that would ban the porn payment). 2) Given that, you probably are referring to debit cards in this case. Ok that's more of a dumb utility so let's run with it. What Visa does for debit (I implore you to learn more about this!) is serve as a messenger intermediary between your checking account and the merchant's account (plus they make sure the issuer gets their cut of fees, more on that later). Ultimately, they help the banks settle their accounts via inter-bank accounts. Banks themselves can/should do this! The government should force them to do this! But that's then just faster wire transfers (look at Europe). I mean I'm very happy to be wrong here, but you need to explain to me why Visa needs to be involved for a fraud-protection-free bank-to-bank transfer when everywhere else in the world just has that via wire transfers (which is just a fancy name for settling payments via inter-bank accounts) >Luckily that's already well under way. We should have RTP and FedNow next year. Yeah. >Good news! We're not, and at least in recent history we never were! :) Merchant acquirers charge high-risk merchants significantly more to cover chargeback risk. That risk isn't meaningfully transferred to your Costco run. While a Costco may pay 1-2% in interchange, your average adult video business may pay 10-12%. Sometimes more. Ok again so a few things. 1) You are citing the entire take rate on transactions but you're calling it the wrong thing. Interchange is the fee that's paid to the issuing bank; in the US this is, on average, 70% of the fee-rate you're citing (it is a rate set by Visa, but it is passed directly through to the issuing bank). Merchant Discount is the fee that the merchant acquirers get; in the US this is, on average, 15% of the fee-rate you're citing (but as you rightly point out, it can be anything since its a contract between a bank and a business for service). Network fees are the fees that Visa collects; in the US this is, on average, 15% of the fee-rate you're citing (Visa makes $30bn of revenue $10tn of transactions processed). Since it is acquirers who can choose to set their merchant discount at whatever they want, it is again a banking issue not a Visa issue (Visa doesn't even see the merchant discount) 2) Now that we understand who charges what to whom, you'll see that in fact, Visa does not charge a different rate for porn [1], they instead collect a pretty small fee on all transactions to support infrastructure that disproportionally serves porn users who regret buying porn. Sure sounds like a subsidy to me! So yeah anyway, faster wires. [1] https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-usa-interchange-reimbursement-fees.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/visa-usa-in...