6 ms·

See, this is your problem. Abhorrent business practices can exist alongside great products, just look at Nestle. Nothing will excuse them for pumping freshwater

See, this is your problem. Abhorrent business practices can exist alongside great products, just look at Nestle. Nothing will excuse them for pumping freshwater out of inland lakes, or paying for paramilitary organizations to oppress their slave labor camps. It just means that people are fine eating Hershey Bars without thinking about the child labor that made their chocolate.

homonculus1 4y ago
Hershey bars are made by Hershey, not by Nestle.
- bluejekyll 4y ago
  There is the oddity of KitKat in the US being made by Hershey but Nestle internationally.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
I was expecting a Nestle product in your last sentence. Also, pretty sure effectively all chocolate benefits from child labor because of where cocoa trees are located.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  FWIW Hershey was also accused of child labor/slavery alongside Nestle, but you're right and I fumbled that one at the 95-yard-line.
  - egberts1 4y ago
    Right. And that would be fumbling at the "5" yard line but the opponent touched and miraculously tipped the ball back to you, and you recovered and still made your points (puns intended).
    - fsckboy 4y ago
      there's no "the" 5 yard line, there's your 5 yard line and their 5 yard line, and there's 90 yard lines in between them.
  - cute_boi 4y ago
    oh gosh! I use to purchase hershey because i thought nestle bad others good :( Is there any list of ethically sourced chocolate brands? The world is becoming stupid place to live with all these monopolies :(
    - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
      When you dig deep enough into how manufacturing really works, there are few products, especially consumables, that are ethically sourced.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
        There has to be outliers worth avoiding.
        lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Not when the countries that all the cocoa trees are in are known to have not so accountable governments. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263855/cocoa-bean-production-worldwide-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263855/cocoa-bean-produc... Same with mining for materials for electronics, as well as refining and manufacturing of them effectively happening in one country.
      - shepherdjerred 4y ago
        The show The Good Place explores this idea; it's impossible to live a good life because everything in the supply chain eventually has some bad aspect to it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
lucisferre 4y ago
Is it really their problem? Blaming the consumer has consistently proven the least effective way to effect change.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Exactly, so we need to stop blaming the consumer and start making systemic change with regulation. If the largest player doesn't agree to play nice, then it's time that we change the rules.
josephcooney 4y ago
What products do Nestle make that you consider "great"?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  When I'm hacking? Coffee-mate and Perrier. When nobody's looking I've been known to enjoy a Hot Pocket or two, though... I can feel my dignity slipping through my fingers as I type this.
shadowgovt 4y ago
Is blocking Coinbase Wallet an abhorrent business practice?
- Invictus0 4y ago
  They didn't block it, they just wanted a 30% cut. Yes it is abhorrent to rent seek 30% of every transaction when you literally contributed nothing whatsoever to that product.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    > contributed nothing whatsoever The hardware it's running on? I don't see an issue. If users have a concern, they can use another platform. ETA: it does seem to be the kind of thing that the market will sort out... If apple is going to build a reputation for being hostile to use as a crypto transaction platform, then Android is just a quick trip to the nearest Best Buy away.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      They didn't contribute that, the user already payed for it (and Apple pocketed ~40% of the MSRP). The hardware is paid for, same as the software it comes pre-installed with. > If users have a concern, they can use another platform. They can't. Apple locks the bootloader even after purchasing/unlocking the device. It would be nice if we could though! > it does seem to be the kind of thing that the market will sort out... No, I think the arbitrary limitation of what you can execute on hardware you purchased will be a bit more of a sticking point than that. At least when we're addressing the single largest corporation in modern American history, Europe seems to agree with me.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        Another hardware platform, these days Apple functionally sells computing appliances, not general purpose computers. It's why I recommend Apple to all my relatives who don't want to think about the guts of the machine and I recommend windows or Linux to everyone I know who wants to write their own software.
mort96 4y ago
So, p0pcult cited with a Steve Jobs quote which, in this context, can only be understood to mean, "Apple is becoming/has become a company where sales and marketing people are running the companies, and the product quality is suffering for it". shepherdjerred points out that the product quality is still extremely high, so the quote doesn't seem apt. "Apple makes some good products but is evil" is valid criticism of Apple, which shepherdjerred hasn't disagreed with. "Apple is making bad products these days because they are lead by marketing and sales people" isn't valid criticism of Apple (in shepherdjerred's, and my, opinion).
- smoldesu 4y ago
  There is certainly proof of Apple's software quality declining in recent years (iTunes, MacOS, Xcode, APFS, Time Machine, oh god the list never ends) but there's a larger point to be made about how regulation can be a salve for our ills. Apple wouldn't need to be fighting this war if they played nice, but much like Nestle they refuse to heed our warning until it's too late. Apple is at a scale where pithy Steve Jobs quotes don't aptly describe their relationship with the economy or world governments. We cannot trust them to do the right thing, so our best hope for turning them around is holding them accountable for the things we want.
  - aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 4y ago
    What’s wrong with APFS?
    - shuckles 4y ago
      It was a buggy rollout, but they managed to ship an entirely new file system to billions of devices while largely preserving user data. It should be heralded as a software achievement.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        That was impressive, the less-impressive part was watching them completely fail to document the filesystem and (still) have yet to release the open source spec they promised. Par for the course with Apple, but still bothersome enough to mention.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

homonculus1 4y ago

Hershey bars are made by Hershey, not by Nestle.

bluejekyll 4y ago
There is the oddity of KitKat in the US being made by Hershey but Nestle internationally.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

I was expecting a Nestle product in your last sentence. Also, pretty sure effectively all chocolate benefits from child labor because of where cocoa trees are located.

smoldesu 4y ago
FWIW Hershey was also accused of child labor/slavery alongside Nestle, but you're right and I fumbled that one at the 95-yard-line.
- egberts1 4y ago
  Right. And that would be fumbling at the "5" yard line but the opponent touched and miraculously tipped the ball back to you, and you recovered and still made your points (puns intended).
  - fsckboy 4y ago
    there's no "the" 5 yard line, there's your 5 yard line and their 5 yard line, and there's 90 yard lines in between them.
- cute_boi 4y ago
  oh gosh! I use to purchase hershey because i thought nestle bad others good :( Is there any list of ethically sourced chocolate brands? The world is becoming stupid place to live with all these monopolies :(
  - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
    When you dig deep enough into how manufacturing really works, there are few products, especially consumables, that are ethically sourced.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      There has to be outliers worth avoiding.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Not when the countries that all the cocoa trees are in are known to have not so accountable governments. https://www.statista.com/statistics/263855/cocoa-bean-production-worldwide-by-region/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/263855/cocoa-bean-produc... Same with mining for materials for electronics, as well as refining and manufacturing of them effectively happening in one country.
    - shepherdjerred 4y ago
      The show The Good Place explores this idea; it's impossible to live a good life because everything in the supply chain eventually has some bad aspect to it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

lucisferre 4y ago

Is it really their problem? Blaming the consumer has consistently proven the least effective way to effect change.

smoldesu 4y ago
Exactly, so we need to stop blaming the consumer and start making systemic change with regulation. If the largest player doesn't agree to play nice, then it's time that we change the rules.

josephcooney 4y ago

What products do Nestle make that you consider "great"?

smoldesu 4y ago
When I'm hacking? Coffee-mate and Perrier. When nobody's looking I've been known to enjoy a Hot Pocket or two, though... I can feel my dignity slipping through my fingers as I type this.

shadowgovt 4y ago

Is blocking Coinbase Wallet an abhorrent business practice?

Invictus0 4y ago
They didn't block it, they just wanted a 30% cut. Yes it is abhorrent to rent seek 30% of every transaction when you literally contributed nothing whatsoever to that product.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  > contributed nothing whatsoever The hardware it's running on? I don't see an issue. If users have a concern, they can use another platform. ETA: it does seem to be the kind of thing that the market will sort out... If apple is going to build a reputation for being hostile to use as a crypto transaction platform, then Android is just a quick trip to the nearest Best Buy away.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    They didn't contribute that, the user already payed for it (and Apple pocketed ~40% of the MSRP). The hardware is paid for, same as the software it comes pre-installed with. > If users have a concern, they can use another platform. They can't. Apple locks the bootloader even after purchasing/unlocking the device. It would be nice if we could though! > it does seem to be the kind of thing that the market will sort out... No, I think the arbitrary limitation of what you can execute on hardware you purchased will be a bit more of a sticking point than that. At least when we're addressing the single largest corporation in modern American history, Europe seems to agree with me.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      Another hardware platform, these days Apple functionally sells computing appliances, not general purpose computers. It's why I recommend Apple to all my relatives who don't want to think about the guts of the machine and I recommend windows or Linux to everyone I know who wants to write their own software.

mort96 4y ago

So, p0pcult cited with a Steve Jobs quote which, in this context, can only be understood to mean, "Apple is becoming/has become a company where sales and marketing people are running the companies, and the product quality is suffering for it". shepherdjerred points out that the product quality is still extremely high, so the quote doesn't seem apt. "Apple makes some good products but is evil" is valid criticism of Apple, which shepherdjerred hasn't disagreed with. "Apple is making bad products these days because they are lead by marketing and sales people" isn't valid criticism of Apple (in shepherdjerred's, and my, opinion).

smoldesu 4y ago
There is certainly proof of Apple's software quality declining in recent years (iTunes, MacOS, Xcode, APFS, Time Machine, oh god the list never ends) but there's a larger point to be made about how regulation can be a salve for our ills. Apple wouldn't need to be fighting this war if they played nice, but much like Nestle they refuse to heed our warning until it's too late. Apple is at a scale where pithy Steve Jobs quotes don't aptly describe their relationship with the economy or world governments. We cannot trust them to do the right thing, so our best hope for turning them around is holding them accountable for the things we want.
- aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA 4y ago
  What’s wrong with APFS?
  - shuckles 4y ago
    It was a buggy rollout, but they managed to ship an entirely new file system to billions of devices while largely preserving user data. It should be heralded as a software achievement.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      That was impressive, the less-impressive part was watching them completely fail to document the filesystem and (still) have yet to release the open source spec they promised. Par for the course with Apple, but still bothersome enough to mention.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]