5 ms·

This seems like a consistent application of existing in-app purchase rules: purchasing a digital good to enjoy within the app requires IAP support for everyone

This seems like a consistent application of existing in-app purchase rules: purchasing a digital good to enjoy within the app requires IAP support for everyone else, so why not Coinbase? It's not clear (to me) that Apple is doubling down or strengthening the rules here. If anything, I suspect that Coinbase intentionally violated the rules with this update so that it can sign on with Epic and Twitter in the fight against Apple.

CharlesW 4y ago
> This seems like a consistent application of existing in-app purchase rules… Exactly, the dumb/risky thing to do would be to make a special exception for Coinbase. This is no different from a consumer buying Robux to spend on a 3rd-party game.
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  This would only be comparable if Coinbase sold BaseBux through the app or something, which gave access to features within the app. This is more like your stock broker app letting you buy a stock, although "cryptocurrencies aren't securities, they're speculative assets". So maybe more like buying art via an app.
- baq 4y ago
  If crypt ever gets treated as securities, you’ll see Apple backing off the same minute.
shagie 4y ago
(I haven't gone trawling through captures) but its been there for at least a month. https://web.archive.org/web/20221030193939/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221030193939/https://developer... (search for NFT in the page).
Y_Y 4y ago
What if I buy AAPL in my trading app or USD with my forex broker? I bet they're not taking 30% on that.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  If the app you were using included a transaction fee to purchase the AAPL stock, Apple would claim a 30% cut of that fee.
thefounder 4y ago
So online banking apps should be charged 30% of forex transactions as well, right? Either way the whole comission thing is plain stupid. Maybe paying for app review & download but why for transactions?
- pcthrowaway 4y ago
  Don't forget, your stock broker should give Apple 30% of every stock purchased. edit: for those paying a broker fee, does Apple even take 30% of that?
- paulmd 4y ago
  forex transaction fees, which is different from forex transaction value. yeah arguably if apple wanted to say "you're doing a forex trade in app, TD Ameritrade makes $10 in fees on that $20k transaction, we deserve $3 of that, and it needs to be paid via our IAP scheme" that's a consistent application of their rules at least. again though, coinbase's PR department is doing what PR departments do, they've got you talking like coinbase would be charged 30% of the whole transaction and that's not actually what Apple is saying here... just like it turns out Qualcomm may not have been entirely honest about ARM's licensing changes and many of the specifics of EVGA's complaints are highly misleading or specific to their (atypical) business model, despite a generally-correct thrust. Like, kinda funny that grown-ass adults don't understand that a literal PR department might not always be presenting the situation entirely fairly... and this is a business community we're discussing that in, no less. You need to apply critical thinking about why someone might be saying things now, and why they're saying them in that particular way... they're happy to lead you into a wrongful conclusion even if they themselves haven't said anything technically wrong: that is the conclusion they intended for you to draw and you consumed the information uncritically and you did draw that conclusion. They walked you right down the garden path there, give that PR guy a raise. Just like Sony can argue for app-store openness on Apple's platforms but argue they shouldn't have to open their own platform to competitors too... they want to keep their 30% cut but force their competitors to give up theirs. And no, consoles are not sold at a loss anymore, PS5 hit hardware profitability around 6 months after launch...
- sverhagen 4y ago
_Algernon_ 4y ago
Coinbase is facilitating purchasing between third parties. Do you have to pay 30% Apple tax when purchasing things in the e-bay app on an iPhone? (I honestly don't know, but these seem equivalent to me)
- luckylion 4y ago
  It would be 30% of the ebay fee, I suppose. That would be wild though. Would banks be paying 30% of their account fees that are related to actions taken on the iphone?
- mrbombastic 4y ago
  “Digital” goods is the differentiator. ebay, amazon and the like can sell physical goods without giving a cut. It is why you can’t buy kindle books in the amazon app, they would have to give apple a cut.
  - px43 4y ago
    When you buy an NFT using the Coinbase wallet, you aren't buying it from Coinbase, you're buying it from some other random person. The Coinbase wallet is only being used to facilitate a person-to-person transaction, and view personal NFT collections.
    - mrbombastic 4y ago
      It has been claimed elsewhere that coinbase charges transaction fees for these, i don’t know if that is true or not but if it is it does not seem to be an inconsistent application of the rules. It would be the same as buying a kindle edition from an independent publisher through amazon’s iOS app, amazon takes a cut so they have to pay up. I am not defending the policy just not clear to me this is an inconsistent application.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - HDThoreaun 4y ago
houstonn 4y ago
From Coinbase's post: For anyone who understands how NFTs and blockchains work, this is clearly not possible. Apple’s proprietary In-App Purchase system does not support crypto so we couldn’t comply even if we tried. This is akin to Apple trying to take a cut of fees for every email that gets sent over open Internet protocols.
- Someone 4y ago
  > This is akin to Apple trying to take a cut of fees for every email that gets sent over open Internet protocols No, only the ones sent using their hardware. And I think there’s no law or regulation that would forbid them from doing that. Similarly, if, currently, the App Store model doesn’t support what Coinbase wants to do, they shouldn’t have made an app. (this isn’t a statement about the desirability of the current situation)
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of the current rules, though. Apple doesn't (yet...) demand a 30% cut when you buy stocks via an app on your iphone.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      They're demanding a 30% cut of the transaction fees, not of what is being purchased.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    > No, only the ones sent using their hardware. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying my iPhone belongs to Apple? (I may be confused by how you mean "their hardware".)
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      I believe that could be changed to: > No, only the ones sent using [an app distributed via Apple's App Store]. I don't want to speak for anyone, but that's (probably) more accurate to the intended meaning.
geocar 4y ago
> If anything, I suspect that Coinbase intentionally violated the rules with this update Trading volume has been falling 30-44% every quarter: https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q3/Coinbase-Q3'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q3... https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q2/v2/Coinbase-Q2'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q2... https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Coinbase-Q1'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q1... so I'm thinking they don't have a product and they know it. This NFT product was supposed to be so hot their servers couldn't take it! https://www.gfinityesports.com/cryptocurrency/coinbase-nft-waitlist-crashes-sign-up-register-marketplace/ https://www.gfinityesports.com/cryptocurrency/coinbase-nft-w... so what gives? I think someone is lying here. Maybe even bad enough someone could get fired if this doesn't get turned around. And if that's the case, it seems plausible to me that someone looked at 30% of "their" revenue going to Apple and just said fuck it.
- throwaway290 4y ago
  Yep. Then they saw Spotify and the like attacking app store and decided it's a hot moment to pile on.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  This fits with what I've heard from ex-Coinbase folks.
dahfizz 4y ago
Should apple also take 30% of every Venmo transaction I make? If I use my iphone to do a check deposit to my bank account, should apple take 30% of that? This is not an in app purchase, IMO.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  Coinbase charges transaction fees and those are the in-app purchases for which Apple are claiming their cut.

CharlesW 4y ago

> This seems like a consistent application of existing in-app purchase rules… Exactly, the dumb/risky thing to do would be to make a special exception for Coinbase. This is no different from a consumer buying Robux to spend on a 3rd-party game.

pcthrowaway 4y ago
This would only be comparable if Coinbase sold BaseBux through the app or something, which gave access to features within the app. This is more like your stock broker app letting you buy a stock, although "cryptocurrencies aren't securities, they're speculative assets". So maybe more like buying art via an app.
baq 4y ago
If crypt ever gets treated as securities, you’ll see Apple backing off the same minute.

shagie 4y ago

(I haven't gone trawling through captures) but its been there for at least a month. https://web.archive.org/web/20221030193939/https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://web.archive.org/web/20221030193939/https://developer... (search for NFT in the page).

Y_Y 4y ago

What if I buy AAPL in my trading app or USD with my forex broker? I bet they're not taking 30% on that.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
If the app you were using included a transaction fee to purchase the AAPL stock, Apple would claim a 30% cut of that fee.

thefounder 4y ago

So online banking apps should be charged 30% of forex transactions as well, right? Either way the whole comission thing is plain stupid. Maybe paying for app review & download but why for transactions?

pcthrowaway 4y ago
Don't forget, your stock broker should give Apple 30% of every stock purchased. edit: for those paying a broker fee, does Apple even take 30% of that?
paulmd 4y ago
forex transaction fees, which is different from forex transaction value. yeah arguably if apple wanted to say "you're doing a forex trade in app, TD Ameritrade makes $10 in fees on that $20k transaction, we deserve $3 of that, and it needs to be paid via our IAP scheme" that's a consistent application of their rules at least. again though, coinbase's PR department is doing what PR departments do, they've got you talking like coinbase would be charged 30% of the whole transaction and that's not actually what Apple is saying here... just like it turns out Qualcomm may not have been entirely honest about ARM's licensing changes and many of the specifics of EVGA's complaints are highly misleading or specific to their (atypical) business model, despite a generally-correct thrust. Like, kinda funny that grown-ass adults don't understand that a literal PR department might not always be presenting the situation entirely fairly... and this is a business community we're discussing that in, no less. You need to apply critical thinking about why someone might be saying things now, and why they're saying them in that particular way... they're happy to lead you into a wrongful conclusion even if they themselves haven't said anything technically wrong: that is the conclusion they intended for you to draw and you consumed the information uncritically and you did draw that conclusion. They walked you right down the garden path there, give that PR guy a raise. Just like Sony can argue for app-store openness on Apple's platforms but argue they shouldn't have to open their own platform to competitors too... they want to keep their 30% cut but force their competitors to give up theirs. And no, consoles are not sold at a loss anymore, PS5 hit hardware profitability around 6 months after launch...
sverhagen 4y ago

_Algernon_ 4y ago

Coinbase is facilitating purchasing between third parties. Do you have to pay 30% Apple tax when purchasing things in the e-bay app on an iPhone? (I honestly don't know, but these seem equivalent to me)

luckylion 4y ago
It would be 30% of the ebay fee, I suppose. That would be wild though. Would banks be paying 30% of their account fees that are related to actions taken on the iphone?
mrbombastic 4y ago
“Digital” goods is the differentiator. ebay, amazon and the like can sell physical goods without giving a cut. It is why you can’t buy kindle books in the amazon app, they would have to give apple a cut.
- px43 4y ago
  When you buy an NFT using the Coinbase wallet, you aren't buying it from Coinbase, you're buying it from some other random person. The Coinbase wallet is only being used to facilitate a person-to-person transaction, and view personal NFT collections.
  - mrbombastic 4y ago
    It has been claimed elsewhere that coinbase charges transaction fees for these, i don’t know if that is true or not but if it is it does not seem to be an inconsistent application of the rules. It would be the same as buying a kindle edition from an independent publisher through amazon’s iOS app, amazon takes a cut so they have to pay up. I am not defending the policy just not clear to me this is an inconsistent application.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - HDThoreaun 4y ago

houstonn 4y ago

From Coinbase's post: For anyone who understands how NFTs and blockchains work, this is clearly not possible. Apple’s proprietary In-App Purchase system does not support crypto so we couldn’t comply even if we tried. This is akin to Apple trying to take a cut of fees for every email that gets sent over open Internet protocols.

Someone 4y ago
> This is akin to Apple trying to take a cut of fees for every email that gets sent over open Internet protocols No, only the ones sent using their hardware. And I think there’s no law or regulation that would forbid them from doing that. Similarly, if, currently, the App Store model doesn’t support what Coinbase wants to do, they shouldn’t have made an app. (this isn’t a statement about the desirability of the current situation)
- dahfizz 4y ago
  I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of the current rules, though. Apple doesn't (yet...) demand a 30% cut when you buy stocks via an app on your iphone.
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    They're demanding a 30% cut of the transaction fees, not of what is being purchased.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  > No, only the ones sent using their hardware. Apologies if I'm misunderstanding, but are you saying my iPhone belongs to Apple? (I may be confused by how you mean "their hardware".)
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
    I believe that could be changed to: > No, only the ones sent using [an app distributed via Apple's App Store]. I don't want to speak for anyone, but that's (probably) more accurate to the intended meaning.

geocar 4y ago

> If anything, I suspect that Coinbase intentionally violated the rules with this update Trading volume has been falling 30-44% every quarter: https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q3/Coinbase-Q3'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q3... https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q2/v2/Coinbase-Q2'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q2... https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q1/Coinbase-Q1'22-Earnings-Call-Transcript.pdf https://s27.q4cdn.com/397450999/files/doc_financials/2022/q1... so I'm thinking they don't have a product and they know it. This NFT product was supposed to be so hot their servers couldn't take it! https://www.gfinityesports.com/cryptocurrency/coinbase-nft-waitlist-crashes-sign-up-register-marketplace/ https://www.gfinityesports.com/cryptocurrency/coinbase-nft-w... so what gives? I think someone is lying here. Maybe even bad enough someone could get fired if this doesn't get turned around. And if that's the case, it seems plausible to me that someone looked at 30% of "their" revenue going to Apple and just said fuck it.

throwaway290 4y ago
Yep. Then they saw Spotify and the like attacking app store and decided it's a hot moment to pile on.
__derek__ 4y ago
This fits with what I've heard from ex-Coinbase folks.

dahfizz 4y ago

Should apple also take 30% of every Venmo transaction I make? If I use my iphone to do a check deposit to my bank account, should apple take 30% of that? This is not an in app purchase, IMO.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
Coinbase charges transaction fees and those are the in-app purchases for which Apple are claiming their cut.