4 ms·

I'm all for this if government would outlaw all the bad behavior I can currently pay Apple to protect me from, first. Which they really ought to do anyway. Like

I'm all for this if government would outlaw all the bad behavior I can currently pay Apple to protect me from, first. Which they really ought to do anyway. Like, do that and I'll join you with the pitchforks demanding Apple change its ways or be destroyed. Meanwhile... please don't.

goosedragons 4y ago
Do you just not use a computer? Why would it be any different? I feel like Apple sells false safety and there's still scams and still malware in there.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Been using computers since... oh, '91 or '92, Apple stuff only since ~2010. Having at least one platform I can use as an actually-useful-in-real-life tool without constantly having to scrutinize and second-guess and mistrust and un-fuck everything is damn nice. They could absolutely be better—a lot better, yes bad stuff gets into the store, yes some practices like loot box gambling really ought to be on their naughty-list except those make them tons of money, et c.—but I like having an option for that kind of experience—even if it's far from perfect, even if they're not as privacy-respecting as they claim, even if App Store rule enforcement and sandboxing protections are less than 100% effective, et c.—especially with government asleep at the wheel, regulation-wise. I like that Apple's in a position to force other companies not to be shitty, while also having an ecosystem too tempting for those companies to ignore. That's great for me. I'd rather the worst behavior they protect against were simply illegal. I'd rather Apple had other competitors offering similar things (though, absent regulation, that kinda depends on their leveraging monopoly power, so it's hard to see how robust competition would fit into that dynamic). I'd rather no companies were as big as Apple (or Microsoft, or Google, or Facebook, or...) with hands in as many pies. But given the broader environment I'd rather have Apple the way it is, than broken up or destroyed. Ideally, yes, that's what would happen, but the rest of the situation's far from ideal. Fix some of that first, so losing them doesn't remove an option I like having, and I'm with you, let's break them up.
smoldesu 4y ago
That's an awfully vague demand. Apple protects you from a handful of things and exposes you to others, it's not a binary situation in any sense (nor will "outlawing" everything you disagree with). Mind you, neither of us need to be at each other's throat. Apple can give me a Developer Mode toggle without taking anything away from you.
- jdminhbg 4y ago
  > That's an awfully vague demand. It's a response to saying Apple needs to be "reined in" which is hardly a concrete proposal.
bioemerl 4y ago
What prevents you from opting into a more closed garden or having apple outline clear walls that you can jump off you prefer? A law like this only gives you more choice.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  It's been discussed to death on here. One side believes there's a risk of companies leaving the App Store if that monopoly's broken, which would make things worse for them than the current situation. The other thinks that's bullshit because that hasn't happened on Android. The first notes that Android hasn't restricted Facebook practices such that Facebook's blaming them for significant earnings misses, so, you know, things might play out a little differently on iOS than it did on Android, and also this group prefer the status quo to even the best-likely outcome from shaking that up, so no amount of risk to it is worth it to them (us). Except usually instead of writing it out plainly like that, the pro-Apple poster writes something shorter and less well-considered, probably assuming certain parts of that are obvious and don't need to be written out, the other jumps on it, a flamewar ensues, and the next time around we get a sea of comments that are like "I just don't understand how this would hurt Apple-lovers, they can just stay on the App Store" and it all repeats.
  - trap_goes_hot 4y ago
    Its BS to think Apple is the cop that is going to fight your fights. Apple only cares about money, and they're going to obediently abide by local laws - see China. We need more/stronger laws, we don't need to give Apple more power.
    - yamtaddle 4y ago
      Yes, of course, I agree. Again, I'd rather a bunch of the stuff Apple prohibits were simply illegal (plus a few things they don't) and that several huge companies, including Apple, were broken up into a dozen or more parts. But in the meantime I'm glad to have one platform where some of those practices are effectively illegal, at least. The second government steps up I'll be thrilled to see them smashed to bits (and hopefully not only them—and hey, those others don't have to wait as far as I'm concerned!).
saurik 4y ago
Have you ever totaled up how much money you are spending on Apple's protection every month to verify it is actualy worth it? And are you really sure that same tradeoff makes sense for larger transactions? Like, if someone is spending hundreds of dollars on gas fees or consumable access credits every month, does it really make sense that they should be paying Apple $30/mo for "protection"? If someone gets really into some app and wants to plunk down $1000 for it, is there any amount of protection in the world that makes $300 feel right?
- dmitrygr 4y ago
  Yes I have. Yes it is.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Very little. The devices & OS are otherwise better-enough than the competition (in the case of iOS, the sole competitor, which goes a long way to explaining why the market sucks so bad) that I'd still be buying them absent app store regulations, so that doesn't count, and anyway the premium's pretty low if you're comparing them to actually-comparable products and factor in resale value. I think the 30% cut (which isn't always that high, these days, for smaller players) of my purchases amounts to low-tens of dollars per year and almost all of that is from a single subscription. So, less than I spend on any one streaming service.
lofaszvanitt 4y ago
You do not need to protect people. People should learn to protect themselves. If you are stupid and exploited by malware, next time maybe you'll learn the basics of the device you are using. Otherwise you will be forever a slave an electronic device's slave.

goosedragons 4y ago

Do you just not use a computer? Why would it be any different? I feel like Apple sells false safety and there's still scams and still malware in there.

yamtaddle 4y ago
Been using computers since... oh, '91 or '92, Apple stuff only since ~2010. Having at least one platform I can use as an actually-useful-in-real-life tool without constantly having to scrutinize and second-guess and mistrust and un-fuck everything is damn nice. They could absolutely be better—a lot better, yes bad stuff gets into the store, yes some practices like loot box gambling really ought to be on their naughty-list except those make them tons of money, et c.—but I like having an option for that kind of experience—even if it's far from perfect, even if they're not as privacy-respecting as they claim, even if App Store rule enforcement and sandboxing protections are less than 100% effective, et c.—especially with government asleep at the wheel, regulation-wise. I like that Apple's in a position to force other companies not to be shitty, while also having an ecosystem too tempting for those companies to ignore. That's great for me. I'd rather the worst behavior they protect against were simply illegal. I'd rather Apple had other competitors offering similar things (though, absent regulation, that kinda depends on their leveraging monopoly power, so it's hard to see how robust competition would fit into that dynamic). I'd rather no companies were as big as Apple (or Microsoft, or Google, or Facebook, or...) with hands in as many pies. But given the broader environment I'd rather have Apple the way it is, than broken up or destroyed. Ideally, yes, that's what would happen, but the rest of the situation's far from ideal. Fix some of that first, so losing them doesn't remove an option I like having, and I'm with you, let's break them up.

smoldesu 4y ago

That's an awfully vague demand. Apple protects you from a handful of things and exposes you to others, it's not a binary situation in any sense (nor will "outlawing" everything you disagree with). Mind you, neither of us need to be at each other's throat. Apple can give me a Developer Mode toggle without taking anything away from you.

jdminhbg 4y ago
> That's an awfully vague demand. It's a response to saying Apple needs to be "reined in" which is hardly a concrete proposal.

bioemerl 4y ago

What prevents you from opting into a more closed garden or having apple outline clear walls that you can jump off you prefer? A law like this only gives you more choice.

yamtaddle 4y ago
It's been discussed to death on here. One side believes there's a risk of companies leaving the App Store if that monopoly's broken, which would make things worse for them than the current situation. The other thinks that's bullshit because that hasn't happened on Android. The first notes that Android hasn't restricted Facebook practices such that Facebook's blaming them for significant earnings misses, so, you know, things might play out a little differently on iOS than it did on Android, and also this group prefer the status quo to even the best-likely outcome from shaking that up, so no amount of risk to it is worth it to them (us). Except usually instead of writing it out plainly like that, the pro-Apple poster writes something shorter and less well-considered, probably assuming certain parts of that are obvious and don't need to be written out, the other jumps on it, a flamewar ensues, and the next time around we get a sea of comments that are like "I just don't understand how this would hurt Apple-lovers, they can just stay on the App Store" and it all repeats.
- trap_goes_hot 4y ago
  Its BS to think Apple is the cop that is going to fight your fights. Apple only cares about money, and they're going to obediently abide by local laws - see China. We need more/stronger laws, we don't need to give Apple more power.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Yes, of course, I agree. Again, I'd rather a bunch of the stuff Apple prohibits were simply illegal (plus a few things they don't) and that several huge companies, including Apple, were broken up into a dozen or more parts. But in the meantime I'm glad to have one platform where some of those practices are effectively illegal, at least. The second government steps up I'll be thrilled to see them smashed to bits (and hopefully not only them—and hey, those others don't have to wait as far as I'm concerned!).

saurik 4y ago

Have you ever totaled up how much money you are spending on Apple's protection every month to verify it is actualy worth it? And are you really sure that same tradeoff makes sense for larger transactions? Like, if someone is spending hundreds of dollars on gas fees or consumable access credits every month, does it really make sense that they should be paying Apple $30/mo for "protection"? If someone gets really into some app and wants to plunk down $1000 for it, is there any amount of protection in the world that makes $300 feel right?

dmitrygr 4y ago
Yes I have. Yes it is.
yamtaddle 4y ago
Very little. The devices & OS are otherwise better-enough than the competition (in the case of iOS, the sole competitor, which goes a long way to explaining why the market sucks so bad) that I'd still be buying them absent app store regulations, so that doesn't count, and anyway the premium's pretty low if you're comparing them to actually-comparable products and factor in resale value. I think the 30% cut (which isn't always that high, these days, for smaller players) of my purchases amounts to low-tens of dollars per year and almost all of that is from a single subscription. So, less than I spend on any one streaming service.

lofaszvanitt 4y ago

You do not need to protect people. People should learn to protect themselves. If you are stupid and exploited by malware, next time maybe you'll learn the basics of the device you are using. Otherwise you will be forever a slave an electronic device's slave.