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All plastics are endocrine disruptors [a], though the an easy filter is softer = worse. If anything food related is in contact with plastic there will be plasti

by Knufen 4y ago

All plastics are endocrine disruptors [a], though the an easy filter is softer = worse. If anything food related is in contact with plastic there will be plastic in the food. The pH and temperature of the food have a big impact on plastic leaching. And sperm quality mostly affect fertility. The egg and the body if the woman is incredibly effective at selecting quality sperm and rejecting bad sperm. There are multiple guidance systems for sperm which selects for good quality [b]. a. https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/index.cfm https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/endocrine/ind... b. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_guidance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sperm_guidance

fnordpiglet 4y ago
Plastic is generally defined by its mechanical and thermal properties and a dominance of polymers. There’s are lots and lots of different chemicals used as plastics today and they have wildly different chemical properties. It seems incredible to state that “all plastics” are endocrine disruptors. Many plastics are essentially chemically inert in a biological sense. In some ways DNA itself can be seen as a plastic being a biopolymer if it were handled properly and in enough quantity. As an uneducated layman my intuition, and the links you provide, is that the additives and monomers added to plastic to modulate their mechanical and chemical behaviors are most likely to be the chemically reactive part that can be disruptive to our biology. I didn’t find a reference to a single plastic in your references. This applies to the leaching comment as well - I suspect you mean ph and temp increase the leaching of the additives from the plastic. Am I right?
- chordalkeyboard 4y ago
  plasticizers are a component of plastic, characterizing one ingredient in plastic as an 'additive' in order to shift the blame from plastic to plastic ingredients doesn't change the basic fact that plastics are endocrine disruptors because they leach plasticizer into food.
  - philipkglass 4y ago
    Not all plastics contain plasticizers, so I would say that fnordpiglet is correct. For example, low density polyethylene (commonly used for jugs holding milk and water) is flexible without addition of any plasticizers. For this reason it is also used in laboratory equipment where plasticizer contamination would interfere with experiments: Low density polyethylene (LDPE) is a high molecular weight polyolefin material. Like all polyolefins, LDPE is nontoxic, non-contaminating and exhibits a high degree of break resistance. The polymerization of polyethylene results in an essentially straight chain, high molecular weight hydrocarbon. The polyethylenes are classified according to the relative degree of branching (side chain formation) in their molecular structures, which can be controlled with selective catalysts. LDPE has more side branching than HDPE resulting in a less-dense 3-D structure. As a result, LDPE is naturally very flexible without the addition of plasticizers and melts at a relatively low temperature (85°C). https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/life-science/lab-plasticware-supplies/plastic-material-selection/low-density-polyethylene-ldpe-labware.html https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/life-science/lab-pla...
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      You should say I’m correct more often, then I can reference that for my wife’s benefit.
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    Just because plasticizer has the word in its name doesn’t make it plastic. Nylon, PLA, PET, ABS, these are plastics. As far as I can tell they are not endocrine disruptors, and they are polymers - aka plastics. They require no other “ingredients” and can be used in an unadulterated form for many applications. Phthalates are monomers (aka not plastics) that are added to plastics to change physical properties of a plastic, such as flexibility, durability, make them more transparent, etc. They’re in fact derived from alcohols to my memory, and have no relationship to plastic. But they are also called plasticizers because they make plastics behave more “plastic” (in the adjective sense not the chemical sense). They are also suspected of being endocrine disruptors. But they’re not “plastic ingredients” - their use is optional and there exist alternatives. It is in fact an important distinction. There are other plasticizers that are not biologically active that can be used in place. Or, plasticizers don’t need to be used at all. Both of these options make the plastics benign. It’s an important distinction because plastic isn’t the problem at all, it’s the regulatory framework around plastic additives, none of which are strictly necessary and there are almost always safer alternatives. Plus it’s important to distinguish because it’s simply false to say plastics are a an endocrine disruptor when they aren’t, even if it’s convenient to get your point across.
- a1369209993 4y ago
  > In some ways DNA itself can be seen as a plastic being a biopolymer if it were handled properly and in enough quantity. To be fair, DNA absolutely disrupts all kinds of biological processes - that's why viruses do anything, for example. And random nonsense DNA that you'd see if someone was using it as a plastic would probably uncover new and exciting failure modes that existing biological systems haven't had to deal with before because nothing natural produces pure DNA in absurd enough quantities to make plastic bottles out of.
  - tomp 4y ago
    Not really, no. For obvious reasons, genetic material is very hard to get into a cell. The immune/digestive system fights it! That’s why mRNA (BioNTech & Moderna) and DNA (J&J) vaccines took so long to develop!
    - a1369209993 4y ago
      > For obvious reasons, genetic material is very hard to get into a cell. The immune/digestive system fights it! That's quite true, but it's true precisely because it's horrifically disruptive. (And the immune system has had more time to evolve protections against that disruption than it has for previously unheard of synthetic polymers.) (Although to be clear, the new and exciting failure modes probably wouldn't involve the synthetic DNA actually getting inside of cells. (Sheer quantity might be sufficient to shove it's way through a phospholipid bilayer, but probably not.))
      - fnordpiglet 4y ago
        Next time you eat food realize it’s completely chock full of dna. Unless you eat a lot of non organic stuff, like plastic.

by Knufen 4y ago

fnordpiglet 4y ago

Plastic is generally defined by its mechanical and thermal properties and a dominance of polymers. There’s are lots and lots of different chemicals used as plastics today and they have wildly different chemical properties. It seems incredible to state that “all plastics” are endocrine disruptors. Many plastics are essentially chemically inert in a biological sense. In some ways DNA itself can be seen as a plastic being a biopolymer if it were handled properly and in enough quantity. As an uneducated layman my intuition, and the links you provide, is that the additives and monomers added to plastic to modulate their mechanical and chemical behaviors are most likely to be the chemically reactive part that can be disruptive to our biology. I didn’t find a reference to a single plastic in your references. This applies to the leaching comment as well - I suspect you mean ph and temp increase the leaching of the additives from the plastic. Am I right?

chordalkeyboard 4y ago
plasticizers are a component of plastic, characterizing one ingredient in plastic as an 'additive' in order to shift the blame from plastic to plastic ingredients doesn't change the basic fact that plastics are endocrine disruptors because they leach plasticizer into food.
- philipkglass 4y ago
  Not all plastics contain plasticizers, so I would say that fnordpiglet is correct. For example, low density polyethylene (commonly used for jugs holding milk and water) is flexible without addition of any plasticizers. For this reason it is also used in laboratory equipment where plasticizer contamination would interfere with experiments: Low density polyethylene (LDPE) is a high molecular weight polyolefin material. Like all polyolefins, LDPE is nontoxic, non-contaminating and exhibits a high degree of break resistance. The polymerization of polyethylene results in an essentially straight chain, high molecular weight hydrocarbon. The polyethylenes are classified according to the relative degree of branching (side chain formation) in their molecular structures, which can be controlled with selective catalysts. LDPE has more side branching than HDPE resulting in a less-dense 3-D structure. As a result, LDPE is naturally very flexible without the addition of plasticizers and melts at a relatively low temperature (85°C). https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/life-science/lab-plasticware-supplies/plastic-material-selection/low-density-polyethylene-ldpe-labware.html https://www.thermofisher.com/us/en/home/life-science/lab-pla...
  - fnordpiglet 4y ago
    You should say I’m correct more often, then I can reference that for my wife’s benefit.
- fnordpiglet 4y ago
  Just because plasticizer has the word in its name doesn’t make it plastic. Nylon, PLA, PET, ABS, these are plastics. As far as I can tell they are not endocrine disruptors, and they are polymers - aka plastics. They require no other “ingredients” and can be used in an unadulterated form for many applications. Phthalates are monomers (aka not plastics) that are added to plastics to change physical properties of a plastic, such as flexibility, durability, make them more transparent, etc. They’re in fact derived from alcohols to my memory, and have no relationship to plastic. But they are also called plasticizers because they make plastics behave more “plastic” (in the adjective sense not the chemical sense). They are also suspected of being endocrine disruptors. But they’re not “plastic ingredients” - their use is optional and there exist alternatives. It is in fact an important distinction. There are other plasticizers that are not biologically active that can be used in place. Or, plasticizers don’t need to be used at all. Both of these options make the plastics benign. It’s an important distinction because plastic isn’t the problem at all, it’s the regulatory framework around plastic additives, none of which are strictly necessary and there are almost always safer alternatives. Plus it’s important to distinguish because it’s simply false to say plastics are a an endocrine disruptor when they aren’t, even if it’s convenient to get your point across.
a1369209993 4y ago
> In some ways DNA itself can be seen as a plastic being a biopolymer if it were handled properly and in enough quantity. To be fair, DNA absolutely disrupts all kinds of biological processes - that's why viruses do anything, for example. And random nonsense DNA that you'd see if someone was using it as a plastic would probably uncover new and exciting failure modes that existing biological systems haven't had to deal with before because nothing natural produces pure DNA in absurd enough quantities to make plastic bottles out of.
- tomp 4y ago
  Not really, no. For obvious reasons, genetic material is very hard to get into a cell. The immune/digestive system fights it! That’s why mRNA (BioNTech & Moderna) and DNA (J&J) vaccines took so long to develop!
  - a1369209993 4y ago
    > For obvious reasons, genetic material is very hard to get into a cell. The immune/digestive system fights it! That's quite true, but it's true precisely because it's horrifically disruptive. (And the immune system has had more time to evolve protections against that disruption than it has for previously unheard of synthetic polymers.) (Although to be clear, the new and exciting failure modes probably wouldn't involve the synthetic DNA actually getting inside of cells. (Sheer quantity might be sufficient to shove it's way through a phospholipid bilayer, but probably not.))
    - fnordpiglet 4y ago
      Next time you eat food realize it’s completely chock full of dna. Unless you eat a lot of non organic stuff, like plastic.