5 ms·

A lot of angry comments in here, but the post says there's an ad-free paid version, > Ads will give users the option to use our independent search engine with

A lot of angry comments in here, but the post says there's an ad-free paid version, > Ads will give users the option to use our independent search engine with ads that don’t track them, or to sign up for ad-free paid search Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? Or do you expect software companies to work for free? (Presumably not the companies you work for).

derefr 4y ago
Some users — possibly Brave's core target audience — might complain that there's no way to remain anonymous in this flow: either you allow Brave to leak your info to advertisers, or you allow Brave to leak your info to Stripe in the payment flow. There's (currently) no way to pay for a Brave Premium account with crypto or through any other anonymous mechanism.
- musk_micropenis 4y ago
  > either you allow Brave to leak your info to advertisers Can you expand on this? According to the article the ads are privacy-preserving but I'm open to hearing otherwise. There's not a lot of detail in the article.
  - INeedMoreRam 4y ago
    Assuming we can trust Brave, the article clearly states: "Brave Search only uses your search query, country, and device type to show you ads, and does not keep any kind of profile of your searches." My question to somebody who understands this more than me, by collecting query, country, device type, is that enough info to identify users? Doesn't Brave automatically get User Agent strings, too?
    - musk_micropenis 4y ago
      Even if that is enough to identify users, you'd have to show evidence that that information is being handed to advertisers, which is what GP accused them of.
      - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
        Because this is the entire internet model, it is not at all a reach to assume there is a privacy issue. Rather, I think you should have to prove that sending your search data OR having your credentials tied to your credit card are privacy preserving. The burden of proof is on Brave. Not skeptical or cautious users.
    - fanso99 4y ago
      Unless they mean something non-conventional, a search query, country, and device type are not enough to do any fingerprinting reliably. Some would argue that if you live in a very small country (like Vatican City) and you are the only user who searches for some obscure query on a daily basis then that's enough to identify you. But on a global scale of a search engine - no, not enough.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      > My question to somebody who understands this more than me, by collecting query, country, device type, is that enough info to identify users? Collecting search queries alone is enough to identify users. see: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/09aol.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/09aol.html
prmoustache 4y ago
Where? I don't see any account management in https://search.brave.com/ https://search.brave.com/
- derefr 4y ago
  Following the link from TFA (under "Search Premium") leads to https://account.brave.com/?intent=checkout&product=search https://account.brave.com/?intent=checkout&product=search
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    Thanks 3$/month looks like a decent price to me. I might give it a try although I am already running an ad blocker on my browser.
    - paulcole 4y ago
      Is there any amount for which you would’ve instantly signed up and started paying or would even $1 a month still be something you “might give a try” (read: won’t do in a million years)?
      - prmoustache 4y ago
        I won't pay for anything if that doesn't provide me decent search results. This is where the "might give a try" comes from and I would definitely try the version with ads first because I would hate creating an account and giving my card number to another service if I am not 100% sure I am interested. I would also want to know if I need to pay that amont per user in my household or if I would need as many accounts per family member so that the quality of our search results aren't harmed by the difference in interests/history. 3$/month seems decent to me if search results are improved over google. The 10$/month that kagi ask me for are a bit harder to swallow. Not in itself but additionned to all the other 10ish bucks services I am already subscribed to (streaming, backup, etc). There is simply a limit/month I am willing to spend on the whole package and if I spend say n$/month on a search engine per user I will unsubscribe to other services of the same cost. And this is something I may have to negociate with my partner. The good thing is it is easier to move from and to a paying search engine than say, an instant messaging service.
ericholscher 4y ago
Glad to see other folks investing in ethical advertising. It's something we've been working on for a long time over at https://ethicalads.io/ https://ethicalads.io/ -- and it's an important step forward in improving how ads are served. With the advances in ML, we're investing in content-based targeting, which we can do as a display network. But search ads have so much context built in, they don't need to track you. > A lot of angry comments in here, but the post says there's an ad-free paid version, People in the comments here who have expectations that products be free, but also not include ads, are a continual problem with the discourse around this stuff. It's quite tiring and repetitive. Brave is even giving you the option to opt out of ads by paying a very reasonable $3/mo. I'm not sure what else you could ask for -- ads that don't surveil you, and the option to pay a reasonable amount to opt out of them.
- deleted 4y ago
  - alpaca128 4y ago
    Ads just like sex are ethical if they're consensual. If I want to buy a product and want to see what exists, ads can actually be helpful sometimes. I don't want to see them in any other situation, though, and it doesn't ever justify tracking.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Can I just get unobtrusive relevant ads without tracking? I didn't mind the search ads on Google back in the day before they got egregious and greedy.
- secretj 4y ago
  So the ads you see are just based on country, type of device (windows,linux,macos,android or ios), and your search term, which is the minimum you really need for relevance. But these are not kept in any sort of tracking profile and Brave doesn't know anything about you, or queries across sessions. And unlike most of the search engines out there right now, we are motivated to ensure that the ads do not become a mess that buries organic results.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Why is type of device needed for relevance? I can think of specific searches where maybe it could matter, but generally I don't think it does.
    - marginalia_nu 4y ago
      Says at least something about socioeconomic status. Although I think less than one might imagine.

derefr 4y ago

Some users — possibly Brave's core target audience — might complain that there's no way to remain anonymous in this flow: either you allow Brave to leak your info to advertisers, or you allow Brave to leak your info to Stripe in the payment flow. There's (currently) no way to pay for a Brave Premium account with crypto or through any other anonymous mechanism.

musk_micropenis 4y ago
> either you allow Brave to leak your info to advertisers Can you expand on this? According to the article the ads are privacy-preserving but I'm open to hearing otherwise. There's not a lot of detail in the article.
- INeedMoreRam 4y ago
  Assuming we can trust Brave, the article clearly states: "Brave Search only uses your search query, country, and device type to show you ads, and does not keep any kind of profile of your searches." My question to somebody who understands this more than me, by collecting query, country, device type, is that enough info to identify users? Doesn't Brave automatically get User Agent strings, too?
  - musk_micropenis 4y ago
    Even if that is enough to identify users, you'd have to show evidence that that information is being handed to advertisers, which is what GP accused them of.
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      Because this is the entire internet model, it is not at all a reach to assume there is a privacy issue. Rather, I think you should have to prove that sending your search data OR having your credentials tied to your credit card are privacy preserving. The burden of proof is on Brave. Not skeptical or cautious users.
  - fanso99 4y ago
    Unless they mean something non-conventional, a search query, country, and device type are not enough to do any fingerprinting reliably. Some would argue that if you live in a very small country (like Vatican City) and you are the only user who searches for some obscure query on a daily basis then that's enough to identify you. But on a global scale of a search engine - no, not enough.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > My question to somebody who understands this more than me, by collecting query, country, device type, is that enough info to identify users? Collecting search queries alone is enough to identify users. see: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/09aol.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/technology/09aol.html

prmoustache 4y ago

Where? I don't see any account management in https://search.brave.com/ https://search.brave.com/

derefr 4y ago
Following the link from TFA (under "Search Premium") leads to https://account.brave.com/?intent=checkout&product=search https://account.brave.com/?intent=checkout&product=search
- prmoustache 4y ago
  Thanks 3$/month looks like a decent price to me. I might give it a try although I am already running an ad blocker on my browser.
  - paulcole 4y ago
    Is there any amount for which you would’ve instantly signed up and started paying or would even $1 a month still be something you “might give a try” (read: won’t do in a million years)?
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      I won't pay for anything if that doesn't provide me decent search results. This is where the "might give a try" comes from and I would definitely try the version with ads first because I would hate creating an account and giving my card number to another service if I am not 100% sure I am interested. I would also want to know if I need to pay that amont per user in my household or if I would need as many accounts per family member so that the quality of our search results aren't harmed by the difference in interests/history. 3$/month seems decent to me if search results are improved over google. The 10$/month that kagi ask me for are a bit harder to swallow. Not in itself but additionned to all the other 10ish bucks services I am already subscribed to (streaming, backup, etc). There is simply a limit/month I am willing to spend on the whole package and if I spend say n$/month on a search engine per user I will unsubscribe to other services of the same cost. And this is something I may have to negociate with my partner. The good thing is it is easier to move from and to a paying search engine than say, an instant messaging service.

ericholscher 4y ago

Glad to see other folks investing in ethical advertising. It's something we've been working on for a long time over at https://ethicalads.io/ https://ethicalads.io/ -- and it's an important step forward in improving how ads are served. With the advances in ML, we're investing in content-based targeting, which we can do as a display network. But search ads have so much context built in, they don't need to track you. > A lot of angry comments in here, but the post says there's an ad-free paid version, People in the comments here who have expectations that products be free, but also not include ads, are a continual problem with the discourse around this stuff. It's quite tiring and repetitive. Brave is even giving you the option to opt out of ads by paying a very reasonable $3/mo. I'm not sure what else you could ask for -- ads that don't surveil you, and the option to pay a reasonable amount to opt out of them.

deleted 4y ago
- alpaca128 4y ago
  Ads just like sex are ethical if they're consensual. If I want to buy a product and want to see what exists, ads can actually be helpful sometimes. I don't want to see them in any other situation, though, and it doesn't ever justify tracking.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Can I just get unobtrusive relevant ads without tracking? I didn't mind the search ads on Google back in the day before they got egregious and greedy.

secretj 4y ago
So the ads you see are just based on country, type of device (windows,linux,macos,android or ios), and your search term, which is the minimum you really need for relevance. But these are not kept in any sort of tracking profile and Brave doesn't know anything about you, or queries across sessions. And unlike most of the search engines out there right now, we are motivated to ensure that the ads do not become a mess that buries organic results.
- criddell 4y ago
  Why is type of device needed for relevance? I can think of specific searches where maybe it could matter, but generally I don't think it does.
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    Says at least something about socioeconomic status. Although I think less than one might imagine.