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Can't you use it as a stand alone currency for the exchange of goods?

by affgrff2 4y ago

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
Yes. Even if every country in the world “banned” it. It would still be used as such.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  So let me get this straight. I can't be paid in it, and I can't pay rent with it or buy groceries with it. Sure, there would be hobbyists who conduct trivial transactions with their monopoly money. But no, this would not even be a small fraction of overall economic activity in such a scenario.
  - jjk166 4y ago
    No, you can still be paid in it and still pay rent with it or buy groceries with it. You can't exchange a bitcoin for cash, but you can exchange bitcoin for something that has cash value.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      Please let me know when the first ever major employer offers a paycheck in BTC, and when the first ever landlord offers rent payment in BTC. Oh, and most importantly. When the U.S. government will allow me to pay my taxes in BTC. Until then, this is a thought experiment. I'm not holding my breath.
      - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
        Employers offering paycheck in BTC: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/11/04/bitwage-now-lets-any-employee-get-paid-in-bitcoin/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/11/04/bitwage-now-lets... https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/041-22/mayor-adams-receive-first-paycheck-cryptocurrency https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/041-22/mayor-ad... Landlords offering payment in BTC: https://www.american-apartment-owners-association.org/property-management/marketing-vacant-units/apartment-listing-service-accepting-bitcoin-landlords/ https://www.american-apartment-owners-association.org/proper... U.S. government allowing you to pay taxes in BTC: you can take your btc and turn it into usd and pay taxes that way - and would need to on your capital gains. Lots of reading for you to do!
        chitowneats 4y ago
        So do you considering that you missed that the entire premise of this thread was, "what happens if the U.S. government bans the exchange of BTC and dollars?". In that instance, bitcoin would lose nearly ~100% of its current market value due to anyone with a brain dumping it.
infecto 4y ago
Over the past N years since bitcoin came into being, I have yet to see a real use for exchange of goods that is running at scale. The cost to move coins/token has always been too high or the use was never at real scale.
acdha 4y ago
Theoretically but it’s a weak fiat currency with high overhead and no intrinsic value, and it’s risky for anyone to use if they are not complying with local law. There are very few cases where someone’s best option is to pay more to use bitcoin despite the drawbacks.
- BirAdam 4y ago
  Nothing has intrinsic value as value is subjective. Things may have inherent human utility, but in the case of cryptocurrency, there is certainly utility. The true utility of a cryptocurrency is the blockchain itself as way to perform escrow, saving, spending, and transaction auditing without a human intermediary. Despite all of this, I will grant that so far it would seem that the financial and material costs of crypto are higher than the benefits lowering overall utility.
  - acdha 4y ago
    > Nothing has intrinsic value as value is subjective. Yeah, yeah, and reality has no meaning because everything is subjective. That's great as a dorm-room topic at 4am but it's not a useful distinction here because there's a huge practical difference. Bitcoin uses random hashes which nobody cares about except to the extent that someone else will give them some tangible value in exchange for them. That's different from almost any other fiat currency because most of them are linked to a functioning economy and have some built-in demand where a government requires use for taxes, procurements, salaries, etc. Quality varies, of course, which is why some currencies are stronger than others but Bitcoin is an extreme outlier in the sense that almost nobody has any need to use it except when they think it's financially advantageous. This is why it's so volatile: someone who has purchased a lot of Bitcoin has an incentive to get other people to buy into the system so they can make money off of it but nobody else shares that reason. Using Bitcoin could make sense if it was cheaper but there are many alternatives and unless you have an ideological commitment you're most likely to pick whatever fits your preferred balance of easiness, cost, and safety. That could some day be Bitcoin but it hasn't been for the last decade and a half except in a few cases involving unusual circumstances.
cjglo 4y ago
In fairness, all the businesses that currently accept it (at least in America) as a method of payment would likely stop accepting it if they couldn’t exchange it for dollars.

Can't you use it as a stand alone currency for the exchange of goods?

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago

Yes. Even if every country in the world “banned” it. It would still be used as such.

chitowneats 4y ago
So let me get this straight. I can't be paid in it, and I can't pay rent with it or buy groceries with it. Sure, there would be hobbyists who conduct trivial transactions with their monopoly money. But no, this would not even be a small fraction of overall economic activity in such a scenario.
- jjk166 4y ago
  No, you can still be paid in it and still pay rent with it or buy groceries with it. You can't exchange a bitcoin for cash, but you can exchange bitcoin for something that has cash value.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    Please let me know when the first ever major employer offers a paycheck in BTC, and when the first ever landlord offers rent payment in BTC. Oh, and most importantly. When the U.S. government will allow me to pay my taxes in BTC. Until then, this is a thought experiment. I'm not holding my breath.
    - bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
      Employers offering paycheck in BTC: https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/11/04/bitwage-now-lets-any-employee-get-paid-in-bitcoin/ https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2014/11/04/bitwage-now-lets... https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/041-22/mayor-adams-receive-first-paycheck-cryptocurrency https://www.nyc.gov/office-of-the-mayor/news/041-22/mayor-ad... Landlords offering payment in BTC: https://www.american-apartment-owners-association.org/property-management/marketing-vacant-units/apartment-listing-service-accepting-bitcoin-landlords/ https://www.american-apartment-owners-association.org/proper... U.S. government allowing you to pay taxes in BTC: you can take your btc and turn it into usd and pay taxes that way - and would need to on your capital gains. Lots of reading for you to do!
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        So do you considering that you missed that the entire premise of this thread was, "what happens if the U.S. government bans the exchange of BTC and dollars?". In that instance, bitcoin would lose nearly ~100% of its current market value due to anyone with a brain dumping it.

infecto 4y ago

Over the past N years since bitcoin came into being, I have yet to see a real use for exchange of goods that is running at scale. The cost to move coins/token has always been too high or the use was never at real scale.

acdha 4y ago

Theoretically but it’s a weak fiat currency with high overhead and no intrinsic value, and it’s risky for anyone to use if they are not complying with local law. There are very few cases where someone’s best option is to pay more to use bitcoin despite the drawbacks.

BirAdam 4y ago
Nothing has intrinsic value as value is subjective. Things may have inherent human utility, but in the case of cryptocurrency, there is certainly utility. The true utility of a cryptocurrency is the blockchain itself as way to perform escrow, saving, spending, and transaction auditing without a human intermediary. Despite all of this, I will grant that so far it would seem that the financial and material costs of crypto are higher than the benefits lowering overall utility.
- acdha 4y ago
  > Nothing has intrinsic value as value is subjective. Yeah, yeah, and reality has no meaning because everything is subjective. That's great as a dorm-room topic at 4am but it's not a useful distinction here because there's a huge practical difference. Bitcoin uses random hashes which nobody cares about except to the extent that someone else will give them some tangible value in exchange for them. That's different from almost any other fiat currency because most of them are linked to a functioning economy and have some built-in demand where a government requires use for taxes, procurements, salaries, etc. Quality varies, of course, which is why some currencies are stronger than others but Bitcoin is an extreme outlier in the sense that almost nobody has any need to use it except when they think it's financially advantageous. This is why it's so volatile: someone who has purchased a lot of Bitcoin has an incentive to get other people to buy into the system so they can make money off of it but nobody else shares that reason. Using Bitcoin could make sense if it was cheaper but there are many alternatives and unless you have an ideological commitment you're most likely to pick whatever fits your preferred balance of easiness, cost, and safety. That could some day be Bitcoin but it hasn't been for the last decade and a half except in a few cases involving unusual circumstances.

cjglo 4y ago

In fairness, all the businesses that currently accept it (at least in America) as a method of payment would likely stop accepting it if they couldn’t exchange it for dollars.