4 ms·

I read both links. This one sounds like a bunch of woke people unhappy that mens health is getting attention. The other study sounds legitimate.

richbell 4y ago
I thought you were being hyperbolic but the linked article and study does seem to miss the forest for the trees. Surely it's possible to acknowledge the flaws of a measure without devolving into ideological and cultural warfare? > In addition, they argued that the design of the 2017 study relied on racist and colonial hierarchies and assumptions because it categorized data as “Western” sperm counts or “Other” sperm counts. > Further, the claims of decline were based on a “species optimum” of Anglophone developed nations of the 1970s, which the researchers argued was scientifically unsound. The GenderSci Lab team warned that this kind of Eurocentric focus has been used by alt-right, white supremacist, and men’s rights activists to argue that the health and fertility of men in Western nations is being threatened, particularly by feminist and anti-racist movements.
- cal5k 4y ago
  Yikes. What the heck is going on in academia.
  - Der_Einzige 4y ago
    Related, men are mass opting out of academia. It's so bad now that they have to have affirmative action for men. https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-education-men-women-enrollment-admissions-back-to-school-11630948233 https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-...
- marcus0x62 4y ago
  > Surely it's possible to acknowledge the flaws of a measure without devolving into ideological and cultural warfare? When a professor of linguistics decides it is appropriate to write a paper criticizing a study about falling sperm counts, I don’t think that is a safe bet.
compiskey 4y ago
- raspberry1337 4y ago
  The data being insufficient because it focuses on white men only, because that's where we have the earliest data, which is "colonial" and "white supremacist". Who's the mob again?
  - compiskey 4y ago
    - marcus0x62 4y ago
      This isn’t about anyone’s hurt feelings. This is about an ideologically motivated author wading into a subject in which they have no obvious domain expertise and then making irrelevant assertions that the original research is “colonial” or “racist.” It is completely reasonable for people to point out that your linked rebuttal to the original topic is garbage. I think you’re the one with the hurt feelings.
      - rahMen838 4y ago
alexsereno 4y ago
It’s going to be a real adjustment for a lot of these people to grasp that young American men are in really difficult situations socially, academically, and that it’s a key factor to underemployment, violence, etc… the concept of men’s health or men suffering feels like an attack to these people instead of a separate legitimate issue to other social topics they find important
- justsocrateasin 4y ago
  Curious if you have sources for this. I agree wholeheartedly that there are some difficult issues affecting men, socially and academically, but always struggle to back that opinion up with any meaningful facts/figures. As one of my friends said, "Positions of power are still predominantly held by men, but the average man is lagging behind the average woman". Not sure if this is necessarily true, but sometimes it feels true. It's also unfortunately a rather un-PC opinion to share.
  - rmak 4y ago
    Men have no reproductive rights at all. Women can rape underage boys and these boys are then forced to pay child support to their rapists including back pay for the missed years. Men don't have a single federally funded organization positively helping them compared to 1000s for women. Men/boys don't have bodily autonomy in US. They are forced to fight in wars and are genitally mutilated at birth against their will. DV laws are anti male. Custody laws are anti fathers. Rape laws are gendered. All the typical major indicators are favorable to women instead of men. Ex: age expectancy, education, drug addicts, suicides, homeless, police shootings, prison inmates...
    - apocalypstyx 4y ago
      The thing is, all of these issues stem from patriarchal systems. (assumption) men will be employed (therefore) child support is their responsibility. (assumption) men are strong independent (therefore) there is no need for assistance. (assumption) men are made for war (therefore) men are to fight war. (assumption) men are stronger, more aggressive [see war], etc (therefore) women [being weaker] must be the victims. (assumption) fathers are severe and disciplinary (therefore) mothers are nurturing and better suited to child rearing. (assumption) sexual intercourse is an act desired by and initiated by men who are defined by their ability to penetrate (therefore) women can only be penetrated [see also aggressiveness] and men who are penetrated are lowered in status to be nearer the category of woman.

richbell 4y ago

I thought you were being hyperbolic but the linked article and study does seem to miss the forest for the trees. Surely it's possible to acknowledge the flaws of a measure without devolving into ideological and cultural warfare? > In addition, they argued that the design of the 2017 study relied on racist and colonial hierarchies and assumptions because it categorized data as “Western” sperm counts or “Other” sperm counts. > Further, the claims of decline were based on a “species optimum” of Anglophone developed nations of the 1970s, which the researchers argued was scientifically unsound. The GenderSci Lab team warned that this kind of Eurocentric focus has been used by alt-right, white supremacist, and men’s rights activists to argue that the health and fertility of men in Western nations is being threatened, particularly by feminist and anti-racist movements.

cal5k 4y ago
Yikes. What the heck is going on in academia.
- Der_Einzige 4y ago
  Related, men are mass opting out of academia. It's so bad now that they have to have affirmative action for men. https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-education-men-women-enrollment-admissions-back-to-school-11630948233 https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-university-fall-higher-...
marcus0x62 4y ago
> Surely it's possible to acknowledge the flaws of a measure without devolving into ideological and cultural warfare? When a professor of linguistics decides it is appropriate to write a paper criticizing a study about falling sperm counts, I don’t think that is a safe bet.

compiskey 4y ago

raspberry1337 4y ago
The data being insufficient because it focuses on white men only, because that's where we have the earliest data, which is "colonial" and "white supremacist". Who's the mob again?
- compiskey 4y ago
  - marcus0x62 4y ago
    This isn’t about anyone’s hurt feelings. This is about an ideologically motivated author wading into a subject in which they have no obvious domain expertise and then making irrelevant assertions that the original research is “colonial” or “racist.” It is completely reasonable for people to point out that your linked rebuttal to the original topic is garbage. I think you’re the one with the hurt feelings.
    - rahMen838 4y ago

alexsereno 4y ago

It’s going to be a real adjustment for a lot of these people to grasp that young American men are in really difficult situations socially, academically, and that it’s a key factor to underemployment, violence, etc… the concept of men’s health or men suffering feels like an attack to these people instead of a separate legitimate issue to other social topics they find important

justsocrateasin 4y ago
Curious if you have sources for this. I agree wholeheartedly that there are some difficult issues affecting men, socially and academically, but always struggle to back that opinion up with any meaningful facts/figures. As one of my friends said, "Positions of power are still predominantly held by men, but the average man is lagging behind the average woman". Not sure if this is necessarily true, but sometimes it feels true. It's also unfortunately a rather un-PC opinion to share.
- rmak 4y ago
  Men have no reproductive rights at all. Women can rape underage boys and these boys are then forced to pay child support to their rapists including back pay for the missed years. Men don't have a single federally funded organization positively helping them compared to 1000s for women. Men/boys don't have bodily autonomy in US. They are forced to fight in wars and are genitally mutilated at birth against their will. DV laws are anti male. Custody laws are anti fathers. Rape laws are gendered. All the typical major indicators are favorable to women instead of men. Ex: age expectancy, education, drug addicts, suicides, homeless, police shootings, prison inmates...
  - apocalypstyx 4y ago
    The thing is, all of these issues stem from patriarchal systems. (assumption) men will be employed (therefore) child support is their responsibility. (assumption) men are strong independent (therefore) there is no need for assistance. (assumption) men are made for war (therefore) men are to fight war. (assumption) men are stronger, more aggressive [see war], etc (therefore) women [being weaker] must be the victims. (assumption) fathers are severe and disciplinary (therefore) mothers are nurturing and better suited to child rearing. (assumption) sexual intercourse is an act desired by and initiated by men who are defined by their ability to penetrate (therefore) women can only be penetrated [see also aggressiveness] and men who are penetrated are lowered in status to be nearer the category of woman.