5 ms·

cough cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity cough cough

VictorPath 4y ago
- hylaride 4y ago
  Oh please. Any direct US involvement was long after the movement was well underway. The Ukrainians picked who should run the country (then and since), and the fact that they picked somebody who the US could work with is testament who they want to align with. Any subsequent elections, as well as who Ukrainians are literally fighting now, is only more validation that the maidan revolution was organic.
  - VictorPath 4y ago
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      Even if you believe that the votes in Crimea and Donbass were as free and fair as Ukraine's national elections (which I don't), there is still the small matter that those votes were illegal under Ukrainian law, and thus their outcome is meaningless.
    - hylaride 4y ago
      You think those elections were fair, that's cute. The 80%+ referendum rates sure are validated by the blue and yellow flags being waved when the Ukrainians return. Anyways, obviously no point arguing anymore.
    - fsagx 4y ago
      If you had left Donbass out of your argument, I think it would be a lot more compelling. In the aftermath of the USSR breakup, referenda in the 1990's indicated large majority of Crimea did not want to be part of Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_refer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum
      - rlkf 4y ago
        On the other hand, a majority voted later that year to join the rest of Ukraine in independence from the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re...
- radu_floricica 4y ago
  It probably happened. So what? I mean, are we kindergarden children to assume no foreign powers work at continuously in any country? Helloo, Russia was just next to Ukraine and did a shitton of stuff, up to and including whatever it did to ignite Euromaidan. You can either ignore one side and point to the other (which is like... no comment). Or go into absurdism and say there is no real internal agency in any country and everything is a conspiracy theory. Or just look at things and use a bit of common sense, compare Eastern and Western influences in Ukraine and never ever again mention that particular anecdote, because in context it's absolutely ridiculous.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > Or go into absurdism and say there is no real internal agency in any country and everything is a conspiracy theory. Ah, so saying that Ukraine and it's citizens didn't have exactly the same agency as any other country and its citizens while the US was fomenting a coup against it's Russian-backed government is just like saying nothing means anything, black is white and up is down. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that there was any result of the most powerful country in the world using Ukraine as a battleground to attack the most powerful country in the region. This is not the smart position, this is attempting to shut down upsetting discussions with circular nonsense. Putting "helloo" in front of a claim is not an argument, any more than "oh, please" or "come on!"
    - moneytide1 4y ago
      The colder the climate is across millennia, the more likely the inhabitants are to have the courage to try the difficult thing(s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin
    - radu_floricica 4y ago
      Took me a while to parse your comment and I'm not sure I got it, but I think the key is "US was fomenting a coup". Everybody was fomenting a coup, obviously. Probably even the Chinese were having people on the ground. Doesn't automatically make everything that happened there a result of US action.
- timeon 4y ago
  Are you saying that there is chance for Hungary?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

VictorPath 4y ago

hylaride 4y ago
Oh please. Any direct US involvement was long after the movement was well underway. The Ukrainians picked who should run the country (then and since), and the fact that they picked somebody who the US could work with is testament who they want to align with. Any subsequent elections, as well as who Ukrainians are literally fighting now, is only more validation that the maidan revolution was organic.
- VictorPath 4y ago
  - dane-pgp 4y ago
    Even if you believe that the votes in Crimea and Donbass were as free and fair as Ukraine's national elections (which I don't), there is still the small matter that those votes were illegal under Ukrainian law, and thus their outcome is meaningless.
  - hylaride 4y ago
    You think those elections were fair, that's cute. The 80%+ referendum rates sure are validated by the blue and yellow flags being waved when the Ukrainians return. Anyways, obviously no point arguing anymore.
  - fsagx 4y ago
    If you had left Donbass out of your argument, I think it would be a lot more compelling. In the aftermath of the USSR breakup, referenda in the 1990's indicated large majority of Crimea did not want to be part of Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_refer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum
    - rlkf 4y ago
      On the other hand, a majority voted later that year to join the rest of Ukraine in independence from the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re...
radu_floricica 4y ago
It probably happened. So what? I mean, are we kindergarden children to assume no foreign powers work at continuously in any country? Helloo, Russia was just next to Ukraine and did a shitton of stuff, up to and including whatever it did to ignite Euromaidan. You can either ignore one side and point to the other (which is like... no comment). Or go into absurdism and say there is no real internal agency in any country and everything is a conspiracy theory. Or just look at things and use a bit of common sense, compare Eastern and Western influences in Ukraine and never ever again mention that particular anecdote, because in context it's absolutely ridiculous.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > Or go into absurdism and say there is no real internal agency in any country and everything is a conspiracy theory. Ah, so saying that Ukraine and it's citizens didn't have exactly the same agency as any other country and its citizens while the US was fomenting a coup against it's Russian-backed government is just like saying nothing means anything, black is white and up is down. It's absolutely ridiculous to say that there was any result of the most powerful country in the world using Ukraine as a battleground to attack the most powerful country in the region. This is not the smart position, this is attempting to shut down upsetting discussions with circular nonsense. Putting "helloo" in front of a claim is not an argument, any more than "oh, please" or "come on!"
  - moneytide1 4y ago
    The colder the climate is across millennia, the more likely the inhabitants are to have the courage to try the difficult thing(s). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Gagarin
  - radu_floricica 4y ago
    Took me a while to parse your comment and I'm not sure I got it, but I think the key is "US was fomenting a coup". Everybody was fomenting a coup, obviously. Probably even the Chinese were having people on the ground. Doesn't automatically make everything that happened there a result of US action.
timeon 4y ago
Are you saying that there is chance for Hungary?

deleted 4y ago

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