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For us Hungarians this isn’t really news, it wasn’t even secret how unfair and illegal the last election was. Viktor Orban is running a hybrid authorian country

For us Hungarians this isn’t really news, it wasn’t even secret how unfair and illegal the last election was. Viktor Orban is running a hybrid authorian country that’s going into the authorian direction, and right now I don’t see any way to stop him.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
To me, Orban is the symptom of a larger problem. If the majority of Hungarians are against him and the ruling party, stopping him will be a matter of having massive protests and forcing him to resign. The hard part is breaking his spell over Hungarians.
- saiya-jin 4y ago
  This... world has no shortage of hyper-inflated egomaniacs who would like to rule a galaxy or two if they could, regardless of their actual skills. If this is combined with smooth-talking, these people, albeit being horrible leaders and bad for future of nations, tend to get re-elected over and over by folks you don't see nor hear about in the news, aka silent majority. Same as ie Putin - for every protester/leaver this year there is literally 100 that are +-content enough to stay, maybe sometimes throw a complaint or two and continue business as usual. And vote for him. Even with some corruption and election rigging I'd say (and happy to be mistaken) they are properly majority-popular, just not 96%-popular. Then one realizes part of population is plain stupid in rather unfixable way, and the choices become being cynic for rest of life or simply leave.
  - denton-scratch 4y ago
    > for every protester/leaver this year there is literally 100 that are +-content enough to stay I've never been to Russia. The impression I've formed is that there is a strong nationalist/imperialist camp among the Russian population. I'm inclined to trust the Levada polling organisation, and they say that Putin (and his invasion) have broad support among Russians. We tend to personalize these things; e.g. it's all Putin's fault. I think that's a mistake; if you don't acknowledge that the nationalist/imperialist sentiment is widespread in the population, then you'll attack the wrong target, e.g. by trying to assasinate Putin. But if the xenophobia and nationalism are just part of the national sentiment, that's not going to work. I have no idea how one might set about combatting nationalist/imperalist sentiment in a foreign country; traditionally we use spies and trouble-makers, but I don't think that works well.
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      >I have no idea how one might set about combatting nationalist/imperalist sentiment in a foreign country When it goes beyond sentiment and into a genocidal war of aggression, like it did in Russia, there is one approach that no one in their right mind would advocate for, but it does work. It certainly worked in Germany and Japan.
      - denton-scratch 4y ago
        Sure; strategic bombing (I suppose that's what you mean). Actually, my understanding is that both countries were militarily defeated; I believe that strategic bombing was really just political theatre.
        saiya-jin 4y ago
        Well Japan gave up immediately when Soviets entered the war with them, fire bombing of cities wasn't doing much on decision making. And Germany was literally defeated to last soldier standing, so yes strategic bombing definitely didn't defeat neither of those, just helped starve army for resources
- xiphias2 4y ago
  A lot of us who have the means to protest left the country instead as a form of protesting, because it's so easy to move inside EU. A huge other part of Hungarians who Orban gave votes to were born and poor people living in Romania and getting just a little bit of money from the country to vote for Orban, but they are not paying taxes (representation without taxation is just as bad as taxation without representation, which was achieved in Magna Carta). Hungarians living in Hungary had 1 day to vote, while Hungarians living in Romania had weeks and could vote in letter.
  - epicureanideal 4y ago
    This sounds like the “politicians picking the electorate” that is complained about in the US when amnesties happen, and about debate about mail in voting and so on. I think there’s a valid discussion to be had about this but it doesn’t seem completely unprecedented.
hylaride 4y ago
cough cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity cough cough
- VictorPath 4y ago
  - hylaride 4y ago
    Oh please. Any direct US involvement was long after the movement was well underway. The Ukrainians picked who should run the country (then and since), and the fact that they picked somebody who the US could work with is testament who they want to align with. Any subsequent elections, as well as who Ukrainians are literally fighting now, is only more validation that the maidan revolution was organic.
    - VictorPath 4y ago
      - dane-pgp 4y ago
        Even if you believe that the votes in Crimea and Donbass were as free and fair as Ukraine's national elections (which I don't), there is still the small matter that those votes were illegal under Ukrainian law, and thus their outcome is meaningless.
      - hylaride 4y ago
        You think those elections were fair, that's cute. The 80%+ referendum rates sure are validated by the blue and yellow flags being waved when the Ukrainians return. Anyways, obviously no point arguing anymore.
      - fsagx 4y ago
        If you had left Donbass out of your argument, I think it would be a lot more compelling. In the aftermath of the USSR breakup, referenda in the 1990's indicated large majority of Crimea did not want to be part of Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_refer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
I'm not impressed by the fainting couch "oh, that authoritarian Vktor Orban" polemics for the same reason I find US political discourse obtuse and genuinely hateful. There is a consistent refusal (and inability) to engage with the topic intellectually and a tendency to dwell in emotionalism. It's intellectually shallow and lazy. Orban must be understood in the broader cultural and political context. Fixating on Orban is a way to ignore the problem, a convenient way to scapegoat someone for all the things you don't like, good or bad. Projection abounds. If Orban never was, someone else would take his place. The political rifts today are not merely over policy, but over basic ethical matters and norms. Scapegoating is just a way to avoid having to deal with your real problems by projecting onto someone often superhuman causal powers that would explain why things aren't the way you'd like them to be. Conspiracy theorists do the same thing.
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  You are right in a way, but you can't ignore the influence of powerful individuals on the society in general. Yes, there are many conservatives in Hungary, but it's a whole different level if the person representing them repeatedly breaks the law and pushes things much further. An analogous situation is in Poland. The unofficial ruler of the country declared that Germany is the biggest enemy of Poland, playing on the feelings of the older generation, and is trying to build a narrative around that (the EU servers only Germany, hence EU = evil). That wasn't a narration among Polish conservatives a few years ago, it was constructed by a single person and spread by his minions and the media he is controlling. The biggest absurdity of the last days was when Germany proposed giving Poland Patriots, the Polish defense minister happily agreed as any normal person would, then the day after after the unofficial ruler got berserk he completely changed his opinion and refused to accept them (how can Germans protect Polish sky if we say Germany = Evil?). What a shitshow!
- amusedcyclist 4y ago
  If any of you were looking to spew a bunch of pseudo intellectual nonsense while distracting from the point at hand. This is a fine example of how to do it
  - 4y ago
epicureanideal 4y ago
What is he doing to win unfairly? Are the tactics different than in all other European countries, the US, Australia, Canada, etc?
- chpatrick 4y ago
  Mainly using state assets to campaign for his party (incredibly biased state media/propaganda posters everywhere). He's also had a supermajority since 2010 and has used it to change the voting system in his favor.
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  He pretty much controls (or influences) all of state media.

kspacewalk2 4y ago

To me, Orban is the symptom of a larger problem. If the majority of Hungarians are against him and the ruling party, stopping him will be a matter of having massive protests and forcing him to resign. The hard part is breaking his spell over Hungarians.

saiya-jin 4y ago
This... world has no shortage of hyper-inflated egomaniacs who would like to rule a galaxy or two if they could, regardless of their actual skills. If this is combined with smooth-talking, these people, albeit being horrible leaders and bad for future of nations, tend to get re-elected over and over by folks you don't see nor hear about in the news, aka silent majority. Same as ie Putin - for every protester/leaver this year there is literally 100 that are +-content enough to stay, maybe sometimes throw a complaint or two and continue business as usual. And vote for him. Even with some corruption and election rigging I'd say (and happy to be mistaken) they are properly majority-popular, just not 96%-popular. Then one realizes part of population is plain stupid in rather unfixable way, and the choices become being cynic for rest of life or simply leave.
- denton-scratch 4y ago
  > for every protester/leaver this year there is literally 100 that are +-content enough to stay I've never been to Russia. The impression I've formed is that there is a strong nationalist/imperialist camp among the Russian population. I'm inclined to trust the Levada polling organisation, and they say that Putin (and his invasion) have broad support among Russians. We tend to personalize these things; e.g. it's all Putin's fault. I think that's a mistake; if you don't acknowledge that the nationalist/imperialist sentiment is widespread in the population, then you'll attack the wrong target, e.g. by trying to assasinate Putin. But if the xenophobia and nationalism are just part of the national sentiment, that's not going to work. I have no idea how one might set about combatting nationalist/imperalist sentiment in a foreign country; traditionally we use spies and trouble-makers, but I don't think that works well.
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    >I have no idea how one might set about combatting nationalist/imperalist sentiment in a foreign country When it goes beyond sentiment and into a genocidal war of aggression, like it did in Russia, there is one approach that no one in their right mind would advocate for, but it does work. It certainly worked in Germany and Japan.
    - denton-scratch 4y ago
      Sure; strategic bombing (I suppose that's what you mean). Actually, my understanding is that both countries were militarily defeated; I believe that strategic bombing was really just political theatre.
      - saiya-jin 4y ago
        Well Japan gave up immediately when Soviets entered the war with them, fire bombing of cities wasn't doing much on decision making. And Germany was literally defeated to last soldier standing, so yes strategic bombing definitely didn't defeat neither of those, just helped starve army for resources
xiphias2 4y ago
A lot of us who have the means to protest left the country instead as a form of protesting, because it's so easy to move inside EU. A huge other part of Hungarians who Orban gave votes to were born and poor people living in Romania and getting just a little bit of money from the country to vote for Orban, but they are not paying taxes (representation without taxation is just as bad as taxation without representation, which was achieved in Magna Carta). Hungarians living in Hungary had 1 day to vote, while Hungarians living in Romania had weeks and could vote in letter.
- epicureanideal 4y ago
  This sounds like the “politicians picking the electorate” that is complained about in the US when amnesties happen, and about debate about mail in voting and so on. I think there’s a valid discussion to be had about this but it doesn’t seem completely unprecedented.

hylaride 4y ago

cough cough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity cough cough

VictorPath 4y ago
- hylaride 4y ago
  Oh please. Any direct US involvement was long after the movement was well underway. The Ukrainians picked who should run the country (then and since), and the fact that they picked somebody who the US could work with is testament who they want to align with. Any subsequent elections, as well as who Ukrainians are literally fighting now, is only more validation that the maidan revolution was organic.
  - VictorPath 4y ago
    - dane-pgp 4y ago
      Even if you believe that the votes in Crimea and Donbass were as free and fair as Ukraine's national elections (which I don't), there is still the small matter that those votes were illegal under Ukrainian law, and thus their outcome is meaningless.
    - hylaride 4y ago
      You think those elections were fair, that's cute. The 80%+ referendum rates sure are validated by the blue and yellow flags being waved when the Ukrainians return. Anyways, obviously no point arguing anymore.
    - fsagx 4y ago
      If you had left Donbass out of your argument, I think it would be a lot more compelling. In the aftermath of the USSR breakup, referenda in the 1990's indicated large majority of Crimea did not want to be part of Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Crimean_sovereignty_refer... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Crimean_referendum

lo_zamoyski 4y ago

I'm not impressed by the fainting couch "oh, that authoritarian Vktor Orban" polemics for the same reason I find US political discourse obtuse and genuinely hateful. There is a consistent refusal (and inability) to engage with the topic intellectually and a tendency to dwell in emotionalism. It's intellectually shallow and lazy. Orban must be understood in the broader cultural and political context. Fixating on Orban is a way to ignore the problem, a convenient way to scapegoat someone for all the things you don't like, good or bad. Projection abounds. If Orban never was, someone else would take his place. The political rifts today are not merely over policy, but over basic ethical matters and norms. Scapegoating is just a way to avoid having to deal with your real problems by projecting onto someone often superhuman causal powers that would explain why things aren't the way you'd like them to be. Conspiracy theorists do the same thing.

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
You are right in a way, but you can't ignore the influence of powerful individuals on the society in general. Yes, there are many conservatives in Hungary, but it's a whole different level if the person representing them repeatedly breaks the law and pushes things much further. An analogous situation is in Poland. The unofficial ruler of the country declared that Germany is the biggest enemy of Poland, playing on the feelings of the older generation, and is trying to build a narrative around that (the EU servers only Germany, hence EU = evil). That wasn't a narration among Polish conservatives a few years ago, it was constructed by a single person and spread by his minions and the media he is controlling. The biggest absurdity of the last days was when Germany proposed giving Poland Patriots, the Polish defense minister happily agreed as any normal person would, then the day after after the unofficial ruler got berserk he completely changed his opinion and refused to accept them (how can Germans protect Polish sky if we say Germany = Evil?). What a shitshow!
amusedcyclist 4y ago
If any of you were looking to spew a bunch of pseudo intellectual nonsense while distracting from the point at hand. This is a fine example of how to do it
- 4y ago

epicureanideal 4y ago

What is he doing to win unfairly? Are the tactics different than in all other European countries, the US, Australia, Canada, etc?

chpatrick 4y ago
Mainly using state assets to campaign for his party (incredibly biased state media/propaganda posters everywhere). He's also had a supermajority since 2010 and has used it to change the voting system in his favor.
TrackerFF 4y ago
He pretty much controls (or influences) all of state media.