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Whataboutism doesn't solve anything. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Etc.

by Dah00n 4y ago

piva00 4y ago
Not only whataboutism but also broken analogies. I can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices (Android vs iOS, that's basically it). I can always try to twist the analogy to bring it closer to the actual reality of the issue at hand but it's always an uphill battle to dismember it and re-create the analogy more similarly to what's actually the problem. Sometimes I wonder if it's really other's ignorance about the reductionist analogy being broken or if they're maliciously using it to misrepresent the point made.
- scarface74 4y ago
  > can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices There are three console makers as opposed to two major phone manufacturers. How is that different?
  - piva00 4y ago
    You can release your games for PCs and have enough market share to be sustainable. You can't just release your app on the web and have the exact same experience as a native application, there's no alternative with enough market share for mobile platforms. Do you really not see a difference between these worlds or are you being purposefully obtuse and ignoring reality to try to push your point? It's again an example from HN threads/commenters completely ignoring degree and level of issues and instead forcing a black-and-white view with broken analogies...
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The PC game market is a nothingburger compared to console. So the same people who aren’t willing to walk away from ios with 50% market share are going to suggest walking away from all consoles which combined have a much larger than 50% market share in the games market? People have been complaining for years that Apple is holding the PWA market back. Where are all of the companies that are releasing iOS + web only and telling Android users to use the web app?
      - piva00 4y ago
        Would it be ok for you then if Apple took a 30% cut of every sale made through an app distributed by their App Store? Like Amazon, or food delivery, or grocery apps, and any other app that sells something through the app?
        scarface74 4y ago
        No I wouldn’t. But software has a zero marginal cost and even server costs are minuscule on a per user basis. 80% of all Apple revenue from the App Store comes from pay to win games (came out in the Epic trial)
        piva00 4y ago
        What does it matter if software has marginal costs or not? The principle is the same, it's a product being sold by a 3rd party which Apple has no involvement at all in its production costs being distributed by the App Store which Apple takes a fee of 30% off. The costs of software services are part of the cost of a subscription, as the cost of production of something Amazon is selling is part of its cost. Streaming services have ongoing costs for development, maintenance, etc. that physical goods don't have after they're sold. You are just paying one upfront and the other one is ongoing. > 80% of all Apple revenue from the App Store comes from pay to win games (came out in the Epic trial) And what's the argument here? That those are easier to produce they deserve to get taken a 30% cut because marginal costs are near zero? Netflix and other streaming services have much higher costs than these P2W games if that's your argument; costs for licencing content, maintaining infrastructure, paying for development. Nothing of that is cheap, what is the big difference between a product such as a streaming service and physical goods sold by Amazon that makes you not support Apple taking 30% from Amazon per purchase? Do you think it'd be fair if every Netflix subscriber using Android devices had to share a slice of the 30% Apple takes if Netflix allowed subscriptions through their iOS app and Apple took a cut? Because it's either that or Netflix having different subscription prices between iOS and Android, both are bad for Netflix and good for Apple. All while Apple also produces a competitor. In what world is this a fair market practice when you have so much power over a platform? And even directly competes with some companies that you are putting in a natural disadvantage?

Whataboutism doesn't solve anything. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Etc.

by Dah00n 4y ago

Whataboutism doesn't solve anything. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Etc.

Not only whataboutism but also broken analogies. I can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices (Android vs iOS, that's basically it). I can always try to twist the analogy to bring it closer to the actual reality of the issue at hand but it's always an uphill battle to dismember it and re-create the analogy more similarly to what's actually the problem. Sometimes I wonder if it's really other's ignorance about the reductionist analogy being broken or if they're maliciously using it to misrepresent the point made.

scarface74 4y ago
> can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices There are three console makers as opposed to two major phone manufacturers. How is that different?
- piva00 4y ago
  You can release your games for PCs and have enough market share to be sustainable. You can't just release your app on the web and have the exact same experience as a native application, there's no alternative with enough market share for mobile platforms. Do you really not see a difference between these worlds or are you being purposefully obtuse and ignoring reality to try to push your point? It's again an example from HN threads/commenters completely ignoring degree and level of issues and instead forcing a black-and-white view with broken analogies...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    The PC game market is a nothingburger compared to console. So the same people who aren’t willing to walk away from ios with 50% market share are going to suggest walking away from all consoles which combined have a much larger than 50% market share in the games market? People have been complaining for years that Apple is holding the PWA market back. Where are all of the companies that are releasing iOS + web only and telling Android users to use the web app?
    - piva00 4y ago
      Would it be ok for you then if Apple took a 30% cut of every sale made through an app distributed by their App Store? Like Amazon, or food delivery, or grocery apps, and any other app that sells something through the app?
      - scarface74 4y ago
        No I wouldn’t. But software has a zero marginal cost and even server costs are minuscule on a per user basis. 80% of all Apple revenue from the App Store comes from pay to win games (came out in the Epic trial)
        piva00 4y ago
        What does it matter if software has marginal costs or not? The principle is the same, it's a product being sold by a 3rd party which Apple has no involvement at all in its production costs being distributed by the App Store which Apple takes a fee of 30% off. The costs of software services are part of the cost of a subscription, as the cost of production of something Amazon is selling is part of its cost. Streaming services have ongoing costs for development, maintenance, etc. that physical goods don't have after they're sold. You are just paying one upfront and the other one is ongoing. > 80% of all Apple revenue from the App Store comes from pay to win games (came out in the Epic trial) And what's the argument here? That those are easier to produce they deserve to get taken a 30% cut because marginal costs are near zero? Netflix and other streaming services have much higher costs than these P2W games if that's your argument; costs for licencing content, maintaining infrastructure, paying for development. Nothing of that is cheap, what is the big difference between a product such as a streaming service and physical goods sold by Amazon that makes you not support Apple taking 30% from Amazon per purchase? Do you think it'd be fair if every Netflix subscriber using Android devices had to share a slice of the 30% Apple takes if Netflix allowed subscriptions through their iOS app and Apple took a cut? Because it's either that or Netflix having different subscription prices between iOS and Android, both are bad for Netflix and good for Apple. All while Apple also produces a competitor. In what world is this a fair market practice when you have so much power over a platform? And even directly competes with some companies that you are putting in a natural disadvantage?