3 ms·

So should we also stop console makers from having first party games? Stop stores from selling store brands?

piva00 4y ago
I'd say yes if console makers would force all 3rd parties to not directly advertise how to create an account with them and pay through their own means for a subscription when needed instead of the console game store. I'd say yes if stores with their own store brands would force producers of 3rd party products to always pay a 30% cut and disallow the consumers from being able to purchase the product at a different place of their choosing.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Consoles have forced third party game makers to pay a license fee for every physical game sold since the 80s no matter where you sold the game.
  - piva00 4y ago
    My example was about subscriptions, no console maker takes a cut of a subscription to a game done through the game publisher's own servers/service. No console maker takes a cut from sales of digital items done through the game's platform. You are moving the goalposts, licencing is a well established practice and only interferes with the sale of the initial product: the game, not subsequent upsales where the console maker has absolutely no interaction with, just like royalties for IP and so on, it's another broken analogy...
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Which console makers allow you to have subscriptions that you pay for outside of the game?
      - piva00 4y ago
        Final Fantasy XIV for example.
madeofpalk 4y ago
Actually, maybe yeah!
Dah00n 4y ago
Whataboutism doesn't solve anything. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Etc.
- piva00 4y ago
  Not only whataboutism but also broken analogies. I can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices (Android vs iOS, that's basically it). I can always try to twist the analogy to bring it closer to the actual reality of the issue at hand but it's always an uphill battle to dismember it and re-create the analogy more similarly to what's actually the problem. Sometimes I wonder if it's really other's ignorance about the reductionist analogy being broken or if they're maliciously using it to misrepresent the point made.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    > can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices There are three console makers as opposed to two major phone manufacturers. How is that different?
    - piva00 4y ago
      You can release your games for PCs and have enough market share to be sustainable. You can't just release your app on the web and have the exact same experience as a native application, there's no alternative with enough market share for mobile platforms. Do you really not see a difference between these worlds or are you being purposefully obtuse and ignoring reality to try to push your point? It's again an example from HN threads/commenters completely ignoring degree and level of issues and instead forcing a black-and-white view with broken analogies...
      - scarface74 4y ago
        The PC game market is a nothingburger compared to console. So the same people who aren’t willing to walk away from ios with 50% market share are going to suggest walking away from all consoles which combined have a much larger than 50% market share in the games market? People have been complaining for years that Apple is holding the PWA market back. Where are all of the companies that are releasing iOS + web only and telling Android users to use the web app?

I'd say yes if console makers would force all 3rd parties to not directly advertise how to create an account with them and pay through their own means for a subscription when needed instead of the console game store. I'd say yes if stores with their own store brands would force producers of 3rd party products to always pay a 30% cut and disallow the consumers from being able to purchase the product at a different place of their choosing.

scarface74 4y ago
Consoles have forced third party game makers to pay a license fee for every physical game sold since the 80s no matter where you sold the game.
- piva00 4y ago
  My example was about subscriptions, no console maker takes a cut of a subscription to a game done through the game publisher's own servers/service. No console maker takes a cut from sales of digital items done through the game's platform. You are moving the goalposts, licencing is a well established practice and only interferes with the sale of the initial product: the game, not subsequent upsales where the console maker has absolutely no interaction with, just like royalties for IP and so on, it's another broken analogy...
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Which console makers allow you to have subscriptions that you pay for outside of the game?
    - piva00 4y ago
      Final Fantasy XIV for example.

madeofpalk 4y ago

Actually, maybe yeah!

Dah00n 4y ago

Whataboutism doesn't solve anything. Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Etc.

piva00 4y ago
Not only whataboutism but also broken analogies. I can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices (Android vs iOS, that's basically it). I can always try to twist the analogy to bring it closer to the actual reality of the issue at hand but it's always an uphill battle to dismember it and re-create the analogy more similarly to what's actually the problem. Sometimes I wonder if it's really other's ignorance about the reductionist analogy being broken or if they're maliciously using it to misrepresent the point made.
- scarface74 4y ago
  > can't think of a proper analogy to the market power that Apple holds by having the whole platform coupled with devices that people don't have that many other choices There are three console makers as opposed to two major phone manufacturers. How is that different?
  - piva00 4y ago
    You can release your games for PCs and have enough market share to be sustainable. You can't just release your app on the web and have the exact same experience as a native application, there's no alternative with enough market share for mobile platforms. Do you really not see a difference between these worlds or are you being purposefully obtuse and ignoring reality to try to push your point? It's again an example from HN threads/commenters completely ignoring degree and level of issues and instead forcing a black-and-white view with broken analogies...
    - scarface74 4y ago
      The PC game market is a nothingburger compared to console. So the same people who aren’t willing to walk away from ios with 50% market share are going to suggest walking away from all consoles which combined have a much larger than 50% market share in the games market? People have been complaining for years that Apple is holding the PWA market back. Where are all of the companies that are releasing iOS + web only and telling Android users to use the web app?