6 ms·

> Would giving people the ability to opt out of Apple's ultra-managed experience and take more control over their device harm your ability to continue to enjoy

by eecc 4y ago

> Would giving people the ability to opt out of Apple's ultra-managed experience and take more control over their device harm your ability to continue to enjoy those benefits? Next thing that would happen is that every major "can't miss out" app will walk its users through the process to disable safe management features, all to fulfill the promise of showing cute cat gifs. You know that's how it is.

bogdan 4y ago
Android has had this from day one(?) and it has never been an issue.
- bayindirh 4y ago
  Except the velvet lined iron fist called Google Play Services which gatekeeps the apps from having nice things or not.
  - Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
    Android lets you easily side-load apps. You are not required to get your apps from Google.
    - CapsAdmin 4y ago
      As an example, I tend to look for apps on f-droid before google play.
saiya-jin 4y ago
Why is here consistently in any Apple discussion exactly this reaction? Locked down is good for you, you don't want freedom, we know better. On hacker forum. Seriously, basically any other topic we can discuss like adults here but when it comes to Apple and their restrictions/bad behavior it feels like the most upvoted posts are paid ones (not stating they are, but it certainly would look like that on more generic forums)
- bayindirh 4y ago
  > Why is here consistently in any Apple discussion exactly this reaction? Because the only mobile OS provider which allows blinding tracking frameworks with a single click is Apple currently, and every software vendor will want its telemetry and ads for their "monies". The application model evolved from "pay this to get that" to "train this AI implicitly which we gonna use against you, and ah, we also sell your every aspect of you" to see cute cat GIFs. Some of us are seriously against this and Android doesn't provide that. Maybe it's because Google is an advertisement company which provides nice looking (free-ish) utilities which also acts as nice data funnels (incl. Android).
  - blangk 4y ago
    True, but Google's own implementation of Android in the Pixel does allow you to re sign the bootloader so you can install your own OS and securely boot to it. And "Android" isn't all the same. It's a broad and shared ecosystem.
    - bayindirh 4y ago
      However, doing this and using a custom ROM will flat out disable SIM services menu and related functionality, which I need for my embedded e-Signature in my SIM card. Also, we have a gatekeeper called Google Play Services. In other words, even if you have a custom ROM, you need that all-encompassing framework to have nice things. Clients may differ, but the cloud platform and the connector which enables all these "Android" things is closed source, and controlled by Google.
      - notpushkin 4y ago
        Or you could have the open source microG and miss out only on Google Pay (and some bank apps that wanna validate SafetyNet for some reason). If you disable FCM / push notification support, your phone won't even need to interact with Google servers at all.
        4y ago
squarefoot 4y ago
Then make it a contact that can be opened by removing a screw behind a "non reversible loss of warranty" sticker so that only users who know what they're doing would be motivated to proceed.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>removing a screw behind a "non reversible loss of warranty" sticker Well that would be in violation of existing US Federal Law
  - squarefoot 4y ago
    I'm not familiar with those laws, do you mean the protection screw or the loss of warranty? I think many devices implement the latter in their EULAs, in case of tampering, use of non original parts etc, and the former as a protection is commonly used for example in some Chromebox PCs models to prevent flashing other operating systems. I think many tinkerers, including myself, would be more than happy to surrender any warranty, support, etc, if that was the only price to pay to be able to install what we want on our devices.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act ban such stickers as the manufacture has to prove a modification directly led to the failure before denying a warrany claim. the FTC sent out in 2018[1][2] a letter to several manufacturers, including Apple I believe, that deployed such stickers on their products The common example I give is that if you replace the radio in your car, and then the water pump fails the manufacturer of the car can not refuse the warranty because you change the radio Similarly, if in this instance you remove the sticker to turn on Dev Mode and then the Screen fails it would be incumbent on Apple to prove some software or something you did directly cause the screen failure before voiding the warranty claim, they can not simply relay on a sticker [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/ftc-warranty-stickers-illegal/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/ftc-warranty-sticker... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage-use-specified-parts-or-services https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/04/...
YetAnotherNick 4y ago
We don't have to guess. Android app store is clear example that gives power users choice, while at the same time being able to hold onto most of the users.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  The Google play store is heavily censored and moderated and most users don’t know about side loading.
  - kif 4y ago
    Are you trying to argue that it would be different if Apple allowed side loading? (Not the current 7 day crap) Do you expect most users would know about side loading in Apple's case?
  - sho_hn 4y ago
    A sibling argument is saying that if side-loading were opt in, major apps would move to require it from users. This has never happened on Android.
    - dublinben 4y ago
      Epic's enormously popular game Fortnite was removed from the Google Play store in 2020 for violating their in-app purchase policies, so they publish it in their own sideloaded app store.[0] [0] https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/fortnite-removed-from-google-play-store/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/fortnite-removed-from-g...
    - GeekyBear 4y ago
      > This has never happened on Android. >When Fortnite launched on mobile in 2018, Epic Games very notably sidestepped the Google Play Store and pushed users to download the title directly from their website, an effort made to avoid the substantial revenue cuts that Google takes from in-app purchases of Play Store downloads. At the time, the move was understandable for Epic, which was sitting on the hottest free-to-play game of the year that was pulling in substantial revenues from in-app purchases. Google proceeded to try to scare users away from sideloading Epic's app, and Epic sued. >“Google puts software downloadable outside of Google Play at a disadvantage, through technical and business measures such as scary, repetitive security pop-ups for downloaded and updated software, restrictive manufacturer and carrier agreements and dealings, Google public relations characterizing third party software sources as malware, and new efforts such as Google Play Protect to outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store,” an Epic Games spokesperson said in a statement. “Because of this, we’ve launched Fortnite for Android on the Google Play Store.” https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/21/epic-games-launches-fortnite-on-the-google-play-store-and-theyre-not-happy-about-it/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/21/epic-games-launches-fortni...

by eecc 4y ago

bogdan 4y ago

Android has had this from day one(?) and it has never been an issue.

bayindirh 4y ago
Except the velvet lined iron fist called Google Play Services which gatekeeps the apps from having nice things or not.
- Sohcahtoa82 4y ago
  Android lets you easily side-load apps. You are not required to get your apps from Google.
  - CapsAdmin 4y ago
    As an example, I tend to look for apps on f-droid before google play.

saiya-jin 4y ago

Why is here consistently in any Apple discussion exactly this reaction? Locked down is good for you, you don't want freedom, we know better. On hacker forum. Seriously, basically any other topic we can discuss like adults here but when it comes to Apple and their restrictions/bad behavior it feels like the most upvoted posts are paid ones (not stating they are, but it certainly would look like that on more generic forums)

bayindirh 4y ago
> Why is here consistently in any Apple discussion exactly this reaction? Because the only mobile OS provider which allows blinding tracking frameworks with a single click is Apple currently, and every software vendor will want its telemetry and ads for their "monies". The application model evolved from "pay this to get that" to "train this AI implicitly which we gonna use against you, and ah, we also sell your every aspect of you" to see cute cat GIFs. Some of us are seriously against this and Android doesn't provide that. Maybe it's because Google is an advertisement company which provides nice looking (free-ish) utilities which also acts as nice data funnels (incl. Android).
- blangk 4y ago
  True, but Google's own implementation of Android in the Pixel does allow you to re sign the bootloader so you can install your own OS and securely boot to it. And "Android" isn't all the same. It's a broad and shared ecosystem.
  - bayindirh 4y ago
    However, doing this and using a custom ROM will flat out disable SIM services menu and related functionality, which I need for my embedded e-Signature in my SIM card. Also, we have a gatekeeper called Google Play Services. In other words, even if you have a custom ROM, you need that all-encompassing framework to have nice things. Clients may differ, but the cloud platform and the connector which enables all these "Android" things is closed source, and controlled by Google.
    - notpushkin 4y ago
      Or you could have the open source microG and miss out only on Google Pay (and some bank apps that wanna validate SafetyNet for some reason). If you disable FCM / push notification support, your phone won't even need to interact with Google servers at all.
      - 4y ago

squarefoot 4y ago

Then make it a contact that can be opened by removing a screw behind a "non reversible loss of warranty" sticker so that only users who know what they're doing would be motivated to proceed.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
phpisthebest 4y ago
>>removing a screw behind a "non reversible loss of warranty" sticker Well that would be in violation of existing US Federal Law
- squarefoot 4y ago
  I'm not familiar with those laws, do you mean the protection screw or the loss of warranty? I think many devices implement the latter in their EULAs, in case of tampering, use of non original parts etc, and the former as a protection is commonly used for example in some Chromebox PCs models to prevent flashing other operating systems. I think many tinkerers, including myself, would be more than happy to surrender any warranty, support, etc, if that was the only price to pay to be able to install what we want on our devices.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act ban such stickers as the manufacture has to prove a modification directly led to the failure before denying a warrany claim. the FTC sent out in 2018[1][2] a letter to several manufacturers, including Apple I believe, that deployed such stickers on their products The common example I give is that if you replace the radio in your car, and then the water pump fails the manufacturer of the car can not refuse the warranty because you change the radio Similarly, if in this instance you remove the sticker to turn on Dev Mode and then the Screen fails it would be incumbent on Apple to prove some software or something you did directly cause the screen failure before voiding the warranty claim, they can not simply relay on a sticker [1] https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/ftc-warranty-stickers-illegal/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/ftc-warranty-sticker... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/04/ftc-staff-warns-companies-it-illegal-condition-warranty-coverage-use-specified-parts-or-services https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2018/04/...

YetAnotherNick 4y ago

We don't have to guess. Android app store is clear example that gives power users choice, while at the same time being able to hold onto most of the users.

geraldwhen 4y ago
The Google play store is heavily censored and moderated and most users don’t know about side loading.
- kif 4y ago
  Are you trying to argue that it would be different if Apple allowed side loading? (Not the current 7 day crap) Do you expect most users would know about side loading in Apple's case?
- sho_hn 4y ago
  A sibling argument is saying that if side-loading were opt in, major apps would move to require it from users. This has never happened on Android.
  - dublinben 4y ago
    Epic's enormously popular game Fortnite was removed from the Google Play store in 2020 for violating their in-app purchase policies, so they publish it in their own sideloaded app store.[0] [0] https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/fortnite-removed-from-google-play-store/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/fortnite-removed-from-g...
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    > This has never happened on Android. >When Fortnite launched on mobile in 2018, Epic Games very notably sidestepped the Google Play Store and pushed users to download the title directly from their website, an effort made to avoid the substantial revenue cuts that Google takes from in-app purchases of Play Store downloads. At the time, the move was understandable for Epic, which was sitting on the hottest free-to-play game of the year that was pulling in substantial revenues from in-app purchases. Google proceeded to try to scare users away from sideloading Epic's app, and Epic sued. >“Google puts software downloadable outside of Google Play at a disadvantage, through technical and business measures such as scary, repetitive security pop-ups for downloaded and updated software, restrictive manufacturer and carrier agreements and dealings, Google public relations characterizing third party software sources as malware, and new efforts such as Google Play Protect to outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store,” an Epic Games spokesperson said in a statement. “Because of this, we’ve launched Fortnite for Android on the Google Play Store.” https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/21/epic-games-launches-fortnite-on-the-google-play-store-and-theyre-not-happy-about-it/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/21/epic-games-launches-fortni...