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I feel quite shocked reading the other replies to see that so many people seem to believe the only way to resolve violence is to respond with violence. Perhaps

I feel quite shocked reading the other replies to see that so many people seem to believe the only way to resolve violence is to respond with violence. Perhaps I wasn't bullied as physically or severely as people here, but I had a few people that picked on me a lot in high school. One who ended up dating the girl I was in love with and whom I introduced to my friend group. He rubbed it in my face for almost four years that he was dating her and I wasn't. It wasn't until a few years ago, when I saw him at a friend's bachelor party and he got so drunk he got thrown out of the casino, that I started to reflect on how his life may have actually have been as a kid. His dad seemed to bully him like crazy, to have ridiculous demands on him and thus he would rebel. He didn't seem to have a lot of close friends and didn't seem to have a lot of confidence in his physical appearance. I don't know. What I did realize is that he probably struggled a lot as a kid. Same with another kid that would bully me. And another. I just strongly reject the idea that the only way to resolve violence is to respond with violence—I don't know if I even believe it is a very effective medium- to long-term solution at all. I think what works better is to stand up for ourselves while also trying to stand up for them. To humanize ourselves and to humanize them if we can. To say how we're feeling, to say how we imagine they might be feeling. Physical violence may cause them to feel fear, but at what point do we then become the bully trying to instill fear in them?

themacguffinman 4y ago
> but at what point do we then become the bully trying to instill fear in them? This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense". There are scores of comments here describing a strategy that worked for them, it's evidently effective. Have you ever tried what you're preaching with real childhood bullies? I'm naturally skeptical that it's effective to ask an immature victim to play therapist with an immature bully, but I might find it more believable if you mentioned literally any reasoning or evidence at all suggesting it could work.
- jimkleiber 4y ago
  > This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense". I agree if I believe I did it to them unprovoked, then it would be bullying; however, how often do you think a person believes they're doing it to someone unprovoked? The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that. Also, with regards to self-defense, in the Krav Maga and other self-defense courses I've taken, there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal. So even in physical self-defense cases, who is the defender and aggressor can change quickly depending on perspective. > Have you ever tried what you're preaching with real childhood bullies? Hmm, maybe not real childhood bullies because I started focusing on this in my mid-20s, however I can give one story from a few years ago. I went to a picnic with my ex-girlfriend and her family was there. First time meeting the family. One of the distant cousins came up and offered me a drink. I said I had just made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month and it was just the first week. He said that he didn't know me and I was new to the culture and in his culture they make drinks for people. I said no, I didn't want an alcoholic drink. He said that he makes the drink for me to know how to trust me, if I won't take it, how will he know to trust me, it's a matter of respect. I told him: "Listen, I made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month. So while I want to respect you, I also want to respect myself." The guy stopped trying to guilt me into taking a drink and I think walked away. So while it may not be as an extreme example of what kids can do to each other or other adults can do, I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words that aren't playing therapist so much as expressing indignation and anger and strong confidence in what we want, without demonizing the other side for what they want.
  - themacguffinman 4y ago
    > The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that. Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked. An extremely common theme is that bullies pick weak targets, if the victim fights back they pick another target. There's no provocation involved. It doesn't matter whether a bully internally believes their actions are justified, there are basic facts and societal standards. If I beat you up for looking at me funny and I say it's justified because you provoked me with your glance, that's unreasonable nonsense and claiming subjectivity doesn't suddenly make me sympathetic. > there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal The legal world of adults actually has teeth in penalizing violence which doesn't really apply to the world of children. Not only would child victims be exempt from adult laws when fighting back, it is in their best interest to do so because their bullies are also exempt from adult laws in their violence against the victim. That means that victims can expect to be bullied in the future since they aren't protected by laws like adults are. If your only point here is that fighting back can go too far, guess what, so can bullying. > I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words I don't think anyone here is saying that conflicts cannot be resolved with words, the point in contention here is whether it solves anything for bullied children. I can't even honestly characterize your anecdote as bullying, at no point was harm threatened or even implied. When a group of teen classmates corner you and threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money, do you honestly believe a confident remark about mutual respect can be a solution there?

themacguffinman 4y ago

> but at what point do we then become the bully trying to instill fear in them? This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense". There are scores of comments here describing a strategy that worked for them, it's evidently effective. Have you ever tried what you're preaching with real childhood bullies? I'm naturally skeptical that it's effective to ask an immature victim to play therapist with an immature bully, but I might find it more believable if you mentioned literally any reasoning or evidence at all suggesting it could work.

jimkleiber 4y ago
> This isn't really as ambiguous as you present it to be, the obvious answer is "when you do it to them unprovoked, that's what distinguishes bullying from self-defense". I agree if I believe I did it to them unprovoked, then it would be bullying; however, how often do you think a person believes they're doing it to someone unprovoked? The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that. Also, with regards to self-defense, in the Krav Maga and other self-defense courses I've taken, there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal. So even in physical self-defense cases, who is the defender and aggressor can change quickly depending on perspective. > Have you ever tried what you're preaching with real childhood bullies? Hmm, maybe not real childhood bullies because I started focusing on this in my mid-20s, however I can give one story from a few years ago. I went to a picnic with my ex-girlfriend and her family was there. First time meeting the family. One of the distant cousins came up and offered me a drink. I said I had just made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month and it was just the first week. He said that he didn't know me and I was new to the culture and in his culture they make drinks for people. I said no, I didn't want an alcoholic drink. He said that he makes the drink for me to know how to trust me, if I won't take it, how will he know to trust me, it's a matter of respect. I told him: "Listen, I made a deal with myself I wouldn't drink alcohol for a month. So while I want to respect you, I also want to respect myself." The guy stopped trying to guilt me into taking a drink and I think walked away. So while it may not be as an extreme example of what kids can do to each other or other adults can do, I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words that aren't playing therapist so much as expressing indignation and anger and strong confidence in what we want, without demonizing the other side for what they want.
- themacguffinman 4y ago
  > The receiver may believe it's unprovoked, but I'd imagine the person delivering the blow in that moment may think it was provoked. I don't think most people will self-identify as a bully, but I may be wrong about that. Practically every story in this thread, notably including your own, was unprovoked. An extremely common theme is that bullies pick weak targets, if the victim fights back they pick another target. There's no provocation involved. It doesn't matter whether a bully internally believes their actions are justified, there are basic facts and societal standards. If I beat you up for looking at me funny and I say it's justified because you provoked me with your glance, that's unreasonable nonsense and claiming subjectivity doesn't suddenly make me sympathetic. > there's a lot of talk about legality of self-defense and how if one's actions tip over into being too aggressive, it can go from being self-defense to assault very quickly and become illegal The legal world of adults actually has teeth in penalizing violence which doesn't really apply to the world of children. Not only would child victims be exempt from adult laws when fighting back, it is in their best interest to do so because their bullies are also exempt from adult laws in their violence against the victim. That means that victims can expect to be bullied in the future since they aren't protected by laws like adults are. If your only point here is that fighting back can go too far, guess what, so can bullying. > I think it may show that there are ways to resolve such conflicts with words I don't think anyone here is saying that conflicts cannot be resolved with words, the point in contention here is whether it solves anything for bullied children. I can't even honestly characterize your anecdote as bullying, at no point was harm threatened or even implied. When a group of teen classmates corner you and threaten to beat you up if you don't give them your lunch money, do you honestly believe a confident remark about mutual respect can be a solution there?