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> I want the option to control my devices. Why is that you'd demand this of _Apple_? Doesn't Linux and the plethora of devices it supports give you this alrea

> I want the option to control my devices. Why is that you'd demand this of _Apple_? Doesn't Linux and the plethora of devices it supports give you this already? I ask as a willful customer who prefers the complete control Apple provides. I never have to think about "porn" or "bitcoin scam" or "upsells from parent's bank" or any other crap from being easily accessible on my kids' or elderly parent's devices. Even Steam has some arcane filters that eventually allow porn content to be visible in the store. Honestly, outsourcing the basic policing of content to a company like Apple is a feature; not a bug. Besides, there's so many competing devices that give you all the freedom + control you want out there already. Right? What am I missing? Now, I admit, this means I'm under the mercy of what _Apple_ thinks is "right" or "wrong". As an extreme example, I'd also like to disable _all_ non-vegetarian content from my kids' or parent's phones; to appeal to their "religious"/"moral" beliefs. But obviously that's a not a PoV upheld by the App Store. Similarly, I can empathize there are many other viewpoints people hold that may or may not be aligned with App Store guidelines. But despite all that, why can't Linux devices serve the "control my devices" need.

tshaddox 4y ago
> Now, I admit, this means I'm under the mercy of what _Apple_ thinks is "right" or "wrong". Only to the extent that you're "locked in" to the Apple ecosystem. I'm entirely in the Apple ecosystem as well (at least for smartphone/tablet/PC hardware, and lesser so for online services) but it wouldn't be a threat to my identity to switch if I was sufficiently upset of Apple's choices (and there were viable alternatives). Personally I don't feel like there's much lock in. It would be a bit of a hassle to move some things over, sure, and a bit of a learning curve, but I really don't think it would be a big deal.
- hacym 4y ago
  Google, by virtue of owning my email for nearly 15 years, has me much more locked in and I don’t own a single Android or Google device.
smoldesu 4y ago
Here's a quick breakdown: Linux is not an iPhone. One is hardware, and another is software. Apple has every right to build a hardware product with a software platform, but controlling the distribution of software is an immediate red flag. Conflating security and limitation is meaningless since iOS already has the means to isolate software a-la MacOS. Worst-case scenario, Apple can add a "Christian helicopter parent" toggle for you in the Settings app and let you opt-in to whatever you're enjoying now. > Even Steam has some arcane filters that eventually allow porn content to be visible in the store. Porn doesn't violate Steam's TOS. As long as your account is registered as under-18, it won't even be possible to see it. > But despite all that, why can't Linux devices serve the "control my devices" need. It can. On the newest Apple Silicon machines, I even hear it's excellent. That being said, Apple needs to unlock the bootloader of the iPhone/iPad to give us that option, so as-is our only choice is paying them 30% every time we make a transaction. It's so nefarious that I won't let anyone say it's 'serendipitous with moderation' or whatever you're trying to argue here. It's bad-faith and disregards the reason why we're talking about locked-down platforms in the first place.
johnbellone 4y ago
I bought it. I own it. That’s why I demand it.
lelanthran 4y ago
> Why is that you'd demand this of _Apple_? We demand this of almost all non-phone appliances. Why should phones get an exemption? No, seriously, why are car manufacturers forced to allow owners the option of non-manufacturer fuel, non-manufacturer tires, non-manufacturer oil and so on, but when it comes to phones, suddenly "the consumers are making an informed choice"? We regulate this shit for a reason, and that reason is that market forces alone are not enough to protect the consumer. Your thoughts on it are irrelevant.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  >We demand this of almost all non-phone appliances. Why should phones get an exemption? Do we really? By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. I don't see many people pushing to be able to install BSD on their refrigerator. I think most people would be a lot happier if their TVs didn't come with a full OS. Game consoles have been locked down forever. While re-flashing my router is fun and nice to do, I would wager the absolute vast majority of people both never do it and certainly don't actually care if they can or not. ESPHome is a thing, but most people are buying IOT devices they don't have the ability to run anything they want on. In fact, other than a personal computer, I'd wager most of the devices most people use in their day to day life with the ability to run software do not have – nor do people "demand" they have – the ability to run any arbitrary piece of software they want on it.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. Who told you this? As long as the ECU you install meet the requirements, feel free. There's even a few open source ones. See https://megasquirt.info/ https://megasquirt.info/ You are displaying the problem with allowing Apple special exemption to flout the rules - eventually people start believing that it must be against the law ... just like you did. Better nip this nonsense while we can instead of everyone starting to believe that they may not modify the devices they purchased and own simply because the manufacturer said so.

tshaddox 4y ago

> Now, I admit, this means I'm under the mercy of what _Apple_ thinks is "right" or "wrong". Only to the extent that you're "locked in" to the Apple ecosystem. I'm entirely in the Apple ecosystem as well (at least for smartphone/tablet/PC hardware, and lesser so for online services) but it wouldn't be a threat to my identity to switch if I was sufficiently upset of Apple's choices (and there were viable alternatives). Personally I don't feel like there's much lock in. It would be a bit of a hassle to move some things over, sure, and a bit of a learning curve, but I really don't think it would be a big deal.

hacym 4y ago
Google, by virtue of owning my email for nearly 15 years, has me much more locked in and I don’t own a single Android or Google device.

smoldesu 4y ago

Here's a quick breakdown: Linux is not an iPhone. One is hardware, and another is software. Apple has every right to build a hardware product with a software platform, but controlling the distribution of software is an immediate red flag. Conflating security and limitation is meaningless since iOS already has the means to isolate software a-la MacOS. Worst-case scenario, Apple can add a "Christian helicopter parent" toggle for you in the Settings app and let you opt-in to whatever you're enjoying now. > Even Steam has some arcane filters that eventually allow porn content to be visible in the store. Porn doesn't violate Steam's TOS. As long as your account is registered as under-18, it won't even be possible to see it. > But despite all that, why can't Linux devices serve the "control my devices" need. It can. On the newest Apple Silicon machines, I even hear it's excellent. That being said, Apple needs to unlock the bootloader of the iPhone/iPad to give us that option, so as-is our only choice is paying them 30% every time we make a transaction. It's so nefarious that I won't let anyone say it's 'serendipitous with moderation' or whatever you're trying to argue here. It's bad-faith and disregards the reason why we're talking about locked-down platforms in the first place.

johnbellone 4y ago

I bought it. I own it. That’s why I demand it.

lelanthran 4y ago

> Why is that you'd demand this of _Apple_? We demand this of almost all non-phone appliances. Why should phones get an exemption? No, seriously, why are car manufacturers forced to allow owners the option of non-manufacturer fuel, non-manufacturer tires, non-manufacturer oil and so on, but when it comes to phones, suddenly "the consumers are making an informed choice"? We regulate this shit for a reason, and that reason is that market forces alone are not enough to protect the consumer. Your thoughts on it are irrelevant.

tpmoney 4y ago
>We demand this of almost all non-phone appliances. Why should phones get an exemption? Do we really? By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. I don't see many people pushing to be able to install BSD on their refrigerator. I think most people would be a lot happier if their TVs didn't come with a full OS. Game consoles have been locked down forever. While re-flashing my router is fun and nice to do, I would wager the absolute vast majority of people both never do it and certainly don't actually care if they can or not. ESPHome is a thing, but most people are buying IOT devices they don't have the ability to run anything they want on. In fact, other than a personal computer, I'd wager most of the devices most people use in their day to day life with the ability to run software do not have – nor do people "demand" they have – the ability to run any arbitrary piece of software they want on it.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > By law you can't install your own software or ECU in your car and use it legally on the roads. Who told you this? As long as the ECU you install meet the requirements, feel free. There's even a few open source ones. See https://megasquirt.info/ https://megasquirt.info/ You are displaying the problem with allowing Apple special exemption to flout the rules - eventually people start believing that it must be against the law ... just like you did. Better nip this nonsense while we can instead of everyone starting to believe that they may not modify the devices they purchased and own simply because the manufacturer said so.