8 ms·

Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously. At the end of the day all of these companies would do the exact same thing as Apple if they were in Apple's p

Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously. At the end of the day all of these companies would do the exact same thing as Apple if they were in Apple's position. The real solution to this is improved functionality of web apps and complete migration to those, then you can be free of the duopoly. Other than using phone specific features, why can't all apps run on your desktop, laptop or elsewhere? I'll never get why Apple makes their rules very clear, and people buy Apple and then complain it's restricted. By people purchasing non-Apple phones you incentivize the production of non-Apple phones, helping break their hold on things.

madeofpalk 4y ago
> I'll never get why Apple makes their rules very clear Do they? They prevent app developers from explaining the rules to users.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  All the iOS developers I follow complain that the rules and logic of app store reviewers are arcane and vague
  - johnbellone 4y ago
    Using the logic of the herd here those developers shouldn’t target iOS. It’s their choice after all. /s
tootie 4y ago
Customers (and developers) could move to Android. They have a vibrant market for manufacturers and less vibrant but much more flexible app market. They just don't want to. Apple makes good products but their forte has always been marketing. Users think Android is for poor people.
wvenable 4y ago
> The real solution to this is improved functionality of web apps and complete migration to those Progress on that front is hampered because fruit company only allows their own browser and puts just enough effort into it to keep it relevant as a web browser.
- judge2020 4y ago
  But I see way too many people using Chrome on iOS or the Google App as their main web browser. If it was really about the underlying technology then nobody would download alternative web browsers, but they do, so surely people decide to use these browser apps based on their features like password support, tab design and functionality, etc.
  - wvenable 4y ago
    I don't understand your point. All browsers on iOS use the same underlying technology (Webkit) so the only relevant features between iOS browsers is those other features like password support, tab design, etc.
    - philliphaydon 4y ago
      This is good. Chrome is the new IE. we are repeating history with Google now controlling the web. Except no one seems to care cos it’s not Microsoft.
      - leeoniya 4y ago
        i submit bug reports to Chromium all the time and - wait for it - they actually get addressed! check this one i reported back in March: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1305342 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=130534... triaged & root-caused quickly, then sat around for a while until what looks like an [MS Edge!] dev picked it up and fixed it 2 days ago (merged 4 hours ago). IE this is not. if anything is like IE(6), it's Safari and iOS Safari, where standardized APIs go unimplemented and bugs go unfixed for years with radio silence. and when bugs do get fixed, it requires a full OS update, just like IE.
      - wvenable 4y ago
        No, Safari is the new IE. There are better browsers but due to it's market share (forced by Apple) developers are forced to limit themselves to it's feature set. And the reasons are the same as well: Microsoft saw the browser as competition to their OS and Apple sees it the same way. So they both limited development of their browser to keep their platform supremacy. The situation is not the same with Google -- the web is their platform. This has it's own issues but it's not history repeating itself.
dpflan 4y ago
Yeah, it's interesting. Who are the loudest voices here? Customers of Apple or the the companies deciding to play by Apple's rules to access Apple's customer base? It's going to be a lopsided discussion on HN because of the biases of the users here versus the average non-HN member. What does the average customer want?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > Who are the loudest voices here? Customers of Apple or the the companies deciding to play by Apple's rules to access Apple's customer base? Why does it matter? It could be either of them, and the two loudest groups would be 'Apple' and 'users'. Trying to paint adversarial lines here is genuinely pointless.
  - dpflan 4y ago
    The title of this post contains the words "attack" and "salvo", aren't such adversarial lines being painted?
- root_axis 4y ago
  > Apple's customer base Interesting way to frame it. The customer belongs to Apple. Far be it for the customer to decide what they want or like, they belong to Apple after all, and if those corporations want access to what's Apple's, they need to pay up. You're not wrong, but imagine a world where the customer didn't actually belong to Apple and the users could decide to play Fornite or shitpost on Twitter if that was something they wanted to do. I think that's an obviously better world, even if they end up on twitter as a result.
  - etchalon 4y ago
    I don't understand how the customer wouldn't belong to Apple. I can't go into McDonald's and order a Whopper. McDonald's owns me, so long as I'm in their store. If I want a Whopper, I have to go to Burger King. "But Burger King is farther away, and thus, McDonald's has a monopoly on that customer" is a weird argument.
CogitoCogito 4y ago
Another solution is to pass legislation making Apple's business model illegal.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
DefineOutside 4y ago
> Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. I personally don't like it and will not stop buying apple phones. The CPU's on an iPhone are far ahead of Android. I could buy either the Pixel 4 or the iPhone 11 for the same $450 price a month after launch from my carrier. single-thread geekbench: iPhone 11 (September 2019): 1311 Pixel 4 (October 2019): 662 Pixel 7 (October 2022): 1058 The geekbench for the Pixel 7 is 1051 single thread... still slower than my three year old phone. Android needs to have better CPU's for me to consider it.
- Izikiel43 4y ago
  And also an iPhone has at least 5 years of guaranteed updates
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    This is the reason I always suggest my relatives buy the latest iPhone SE. It'll be cheaper than a comparable Android device in the long run. 5 years of full updates, not just "important security updates", is a pretty good deal. And you can _still_ sell them for a hundred or so euros after the 5 years.
- reportgunner 4y ago
  > I personally don't like it and will not stop buying apple phones. The CPU's on an iPhone are far ahead of Android. I could buy either the Pixel 4 or the iPhone 11 for the same $450 price a month after launch from my carrier. Sounds like you like it to me. You are directly funding whatever you think you "don't like" Apple is doing.
- 6yyyyyy 4y ago
  What are you doing on a phone where CPU speed matters? Mine scores 364 and I've never felt like performance was a problem.
TeeMassive 4y ago
"Stop buying Apple if you don't like it" I'm afraid this is not an option most app devs can even entertain
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Don’t buy Apple to consume as a user if you don’t like it. If you’re an app developer then pay by the rules… It absolutely is an option.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    I guess it's technically an option to go out of business by removing your app from the Apple App Store.
    - achenet 4y ago
      if your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business.
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
        That statement practically applies to every internet business. What would happen if they all left the App Store? What would happen if Roblox, Spotify, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Tinder, TikTok, etc. pulled their apps from Apple's platform? I imagine they'd all take a grave hit to revenue but Apple users would be furious.
      - BitwiseFool 4y ago
        >"If your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business. " Alternatively, if that other business is that strong, maybe we should regulate their anti-competitive practices.
  - TeeMassive 4y ago
    You can't make your end-users switch off Apple...
hamandcheese 4y ago
But I also don’t want to incentivize the production of android phones, at least not until they respect my privacy. There are two bad choices, not exactly a thriving free market.
Barrin92 4y ago
>At the end of the day all of these companies would do the exact same thing as Apple and with that sentence you've just described the exact reason precisely why antitrust legislation is long overdue and whyy your solution doesn't work. Running to an alternative will, in due time, just reproduce the same result. In fact Spotify is itself a walled garden for artists suffering from the same dynamics.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  That would probably require redefining antitrust, yes? Neither Apple nor Google hold a monopoly in the phone space. Are they colluding, or just making similar business decisions. Is there a requirement that we subsidize a market entrant that is all about open fields instead of walled gardens?
  - ThatPlayer 4y ago
    It's been done before with the Hollywood Anti-trust case of 1948 [0]. Studios were neither colluding nor holding a monopoly. But it was an oligopoly building walled gardens by not allowing theaters to carry their movies without a lot of restrictions. Also anti-trust doesn't require a literal monopoly, just a company "with significant and durable market power" [1]. I think Apple fits into that definition easily. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Anti-trust_Case_of_1948 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Anti-trust_Case_of_1... [1] https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...
mr90210 4y ago
Oh Spotify, the company that is eating the podcast distribution market.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Buying Apple? Musk and Ek are tired of playing Apple's stupid game to be on their platform because if they aren't on their platform they might as well not exist.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > if they aren't on their platform they might as well not exist. That's a roundabout way of saying that customers have clearly expressed a preference. Especially ones that spend money.
sschueller 4y ago
I have, however if you are a business you can not avoid apple if you want to access the most lucrative markets. An iOS version of your app is a must.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes and I’m sure if Apple allowed side loading those side loaded apps would be successful. Just look at all of the popular profitable mainstream apps for Android that are not on the Google Play store. But it came out in the Epic Trial that 80% of App Store revenue came from pay to win games. Most of the other big none game money makers stopped supporting in app purchases years ago - like Netflix and Spotify.
  - orhmeh09 4y ago
    FWIW, HBO Max, Hulu, Paramount, Criterion, and probably others offer subscriptions in app. What else doesn’t? Amazon, maybe?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Hulu only allows in app subscriptions for the streaming video on demand level. They don’t allow in app purchases of the much more expensive Hulu Live offering. As far as I know, you can’t subscribe to any of the cable alternative streaming services via in app purchases (Hulu Live, YouTube Live, Sling or DirecTV). New subscribers to Netflix haven’t been able to sign up through the App Store for ages. It’s very much a business decision whether they allow in app purchases.
siquick 4y ago
Even Spotify’s web app on mobile is severely limited..by themselves. You can’t even view your Library and one of the navigation items is Get App. https://open.spotify.com/ https://open.spotify.com/
robbie-c 4y ago
Governments have a responsibility to protect consumers from anti-competitive practices. Saying "just don't buy it" isn't enough, in fact if governments only protected people from things that nobody bought, that would be quite pointless.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
olliecornelia 4y ago
I do like it and I'm tired of tech-brained dorks trying to turn iOS into Linux.
- coldpie 4y ago
  Yeah, same. The walled garden is a feature for me. I like having apps forced to use a single payment processor with a consistent and easy sub/unsubscribe interface. It's not perfect, obviously, but I think it also results in fewer obviously scummy apps. I understand if others don't feel this way, but I do. I would be sad to lose it.
  - JanSt 4y ago
    It‘s good. The fees are just too high because they abuse their market power.
Aldo_MX 4y ago
> if you don't like it Disapproving Apple's monopolistic behavior does not imply disliking their products.
BitwiseFool 4y ago
>"Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously." Easy to say, but this isn't going to work. This kind of "just don't buy it" maxim grossly oversimplifies the situation and gets used post-facto to rationalize that the problem in question wasn't actually a problem because Apple is still around.

madeofpalk 4y ago

> I'll never get why Apple makes their rules very clear Do they? They prevent app developers from explaining the rules to users.

brailsafe 4y ago
All the iOS developers I follow complain that the rules and logic of app store reviewers are arcane and vague
- johnbellone 4y ago
  Using the logic of the herd here those developers shouldn’t target iOS. It’s their choice after all. /s

tootie 4y ago

Customers (and developers) could move to Android. They have a vibrant market for manufacturers and less vibrant but much more flexible app market. They just don't want to. Apple makes good products but their forte has always been marketing. Users think Android is for poor people.

wvenable 4y ago

> The real solution to this is improved functionality of web apps and complete migration to those Progress on that front is hampered because fruit company only allows their own browser and puts just enough effort into it to keep it relevant as a web browser.

judge2020 4y ago
But I see way too many people using Chrome on iOS or the Google App as their main web browser. If it was really about the underlying technology then nobody would download alternative web browsers, but they do, so surely people decide to use these browser apps based on their features like password support, tab design and functionality, etc.
- wvenable 4y ago
  I don't understand your point. All browsers on iOS use the same underlying technology (Webkit) so the only relevant features between iOS browsers is those other features like password support, tab design, etc.
  - philliphaydon 4y ago
    This is good. Chrome is the new IE. we are repeating history with Google now controlling the web. Except no one seems to care cos it’s not Microsoft.
    - leeoniya 4y ago
      i submit bug reports to Chromium all the time and - wait for it - they actually get addressed! check this one i reported back in March: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1305342 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=130534... triaged & root-caused quickly, then sat around for a while until what looks like an [MS Edge!] dev picked it up and fixed it 2 days ago (merged 4 hours ago). IE this is not. if anything is like IE(6), it's Safari and iOS Safari, where standardized APIs go unimplemented and bugs go unfixed for years with radio silence. and when bugs do get fixed, it requires a full OS update, just like IE.
    - wvenable 4y ago
      No, Safari is the new IE. There are better browsers but due to it's market share (forced by Apple) developers are forced to limit themselves to it's feature set. And the reasons are the same as well: Microsoft saw the browser as competition to their OS and Apple sees it the same way. So they both limited development of their browser to keep their platform supremacy. The situation is not the same with Google -- the web is their platform. This has it's own issues but it's not history repeating itself.

dpflan 4y ago

Yeah, it's interesting. Who are the loudest voices here? Customers of Apple or the the companies deciding to play by Apple's rules to access Apple's customer base? It's going to be a lopsided discussion on HN because of the biases of the users here versus the average non-HN member. What does the average customer want?

smoldesu 4y ago
> Who are the loudest voices here? Customers of Apple or the the companies deciding to play by Apple's rules to access Apple's customer base? Why does it matter? It could be either of them, and the two loudest groups would be 'Apple' and 'users'. Trying to paint adversarial lines here is genuinely pointless.
- dpflan 4y ago
  The title of this post contains the words "attack" and "salvo", aren't such adversarial lines being painted?
root_axis 4y ago
> Apple's customer base Interesting way to frame it. The customer belongs to Apple. Far be it for the customer to decide what they want or like, they belong to Apple after all, and if those corporations want access to what's Apple's, they need to pay up. You're not wrong, but imagine a world where the customer didn't actually belong to Apple and the users could decide to play Fornite or shitpost on Twitter if that was something they wanted to do. I think that's an obviously better world, even if they end up on twitter as a result.
- etchalon 4y ago
  I don't understand how the customer wouldn't belong to Apple. I can't go into McDonald's and order a Whopper. McDonald's owns me, so long as I'm in their store. If I want a Whopper, I have to go to Burger King. "But Burger King is farther away, and thus, McDonald's has a monopoly on that customer" is a weird argument.

CogitoCogito 4y ago

Another solution is to pass legislation making Apple's business model illegal.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

DefineOutside 4y ago

> Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. I personally don't like it and will not stop buying apple phones. The CPU's on an iPhone are far ahead of Android. I could buy either the Pixel 4 or the iPhone 11 for the same $450 price a month after launch from my carrier. single-thread geekbench: iPhone 11 (September 2019): 1311 Pixel 4 (October 2019): 662 Pixel 7 (October 2022): 1058 The geekbench for the Pixel 7 is 1051 single thread... still slower than my three year old phone. Android needs to have better CPU's for me to consider it.

Izikiel43 4y ago
And also an iPhone has at least 5 years of guaranteed updates
- theshrike79 4y ago
  This is the reason I always suggest my relatives buy the latest iPhone SE. It'll be cheaper than a comparable Android device in the long run. 5 years of full updates, not just "important security updates", is a pretty good deal. And you can _still_ sell them for a hundred or so euros after the 5 years.
reportgunner 4y ago
> I personally don't like it and will not stop buying apple phones. The CPU's on an iPhone are far ahead of Android. I could buy either the Pixel 4 or the iPhone 11 for the same $450 price a month after launch from my carrier. Sounds like you like it to me. You are directly funding whatever you think you "don't like" Apple is doing.
6yyyyyy 4y ago
What are you doing on a phone where CPU speed matters? Mine scores 364 and I've never felt like performance was a problem.

TeeMassive 4y ago

"Stop buying Apple if you don't like it" I'm afraid this is not an option most app devs can even entertain

philliphaydon 4y ago
Don’t buy Apple to consume as a user if you don’t like it. If you’re an app developer then pay by the rules… It absolutely is an option.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  I guess it's technically an option to go out of business by removing your app from the Apple App Store.
  - achenet 4y ago
    if your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
      That statement practically applies to every internet business. What would happen if they all left the App Store? What would happen if Roblox, Spotify, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, Tinder, TikTok, etc. pulled their apps from Apple's platform? I imagine they'd all take a grave hit to revenue but Apple users would be furious.
    - BitwiseFool 4y ago
      >"If your business is that fragile, maybe you should change your business. " Alternatively, if that other business is that strong, maybe we should regulate their anti-competitive practices.
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  You can't make your end-users switch off Apple...

hamandcheese 4y ago

But I also don’t want to incentivize the production of android phones, at least not until they respect my privacy. There are two bad choices, not exactly a thriving free market.

Barrin92 4y ago

>At the end of the day all of these companies would do the exact same thing as Apple and with that sentence you've just described the exact reason precisely why antitrust legislation is long overdue and whyy your solution doesn't work. Running to an alternative will, in due time, just reproduce the same result. In fact Spotify is itself a walled garden for artists suffering from the same dynamics.

rootusrootus 4y ago
That would probably require redefining antitrust, yes? Neither Apple nor Google hold a monopoly in the phone space. Are they colluding, or just making similar business decisions. Is there a requirement that we subsidize a market entrant that is all about open fields instead of walled gardens?
- ThatPlayer 4y ago
  It's been done before with the Hollywood Anti-trust case of 1948 [0]. Studios were neither colluding nor holding a monopoly. But it was an oligopoly building walled gardens by not allowing theaters to carry their movies without a lot of restrictions. Also anti-trust doesn't require a literal monopoly, just a company "with significant and durable market power" [1]. I think Apple fits into that definition easily. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Anti-trust_Case_of_1948 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Anti-trust_Case_of_1... [1] https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/advice-guidance/competition-guidance/gui...

mr90210 4y ago

Oh Spotify, the company that is eating the podcast distribution market.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Buying Apple? Musk and Ek are tired of playing Apple's stupid game to be on their platform because if they aren't on their platform they might as well not exist.

rootusrootus 4y ago
> if they aren't on their platform they might as well not exist. That's a roundabout way of saying that customers have clearly expressed a preference. Especially ones that spend money.

sschueller 4y ago

I have, however if you are a business you can not avoid apple if you want to access the most lucrative markets. An iOS version of your app is a must.

scarface74 4y ago
Yes and I’m sure if Apple allowed side loading those side loaded apps would be successful. Just look at all of the popular profitable mainstream apps for Android that are not on the Google Play store. But it came out in the Epic Trial that 80% of App Store revenue came from pay to win games. Most of the other big none game money makers stopped supporting in app purchases years ago - like Netflix and Spotify.
- orhmeh09 4y ago
  FWIW, HBO Max, Hulu, Paramount, Criterion, and probably others offer subscriptions in app. What else doesn’t? Amazon, maybe?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Hulu only allows in app subscriptions for the streaming video on demand level. They don’t allow in app purchases of the much more expensive Hulu Live offering. As far as I know, you can’t subscribe to any of the cable alternative streaming services via in app purchases (Hulu Live, YouTube Live, Sling or DirecTV). New subscribers to Netflix haven’t been able to sign up through the App Store for ages. It’s very much a business decision whether they allow in app purchases.

siquick 4y ago

Even Spotify’s web app on mobile is severely limited..by themselves. You can’t even view your Library and one of the navigation items is Get App. https://open.spotify.com/ https://open.spotify.com/

robbie-c 4y ago

Governments have a responsibility to protect consumers from anti-competitive practices. Saying "just don't buy it" isn't enough, in fact if governments only protected people from things that nobody bought, that would be quite pointless.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

olliecornelia 4y ago

I do like it and I'm tired of tech-brained dorks trying to turn iOS into Linux.

coldpie 4y ago
Yeah, same. The walled garden is a feature for me. I like having apps forced to use a single payment processor with a consistent and easy sub/unsubscribe interface. It's not perfect, obviously, but I think it also results in fewer obviously scummy apps. I understand if others don't feel this way, but I do. I would be sad to lose it.
- JanSt 4y ago
  It‘s good. The fees are just too high because they abuse their market power.

Aldo_MX 4y ago

> if you don't like it Disapproving Apple's monopolistic behavior does not imply disliking their products.

BitwiseFool 4y ago

>"Stop buying Apple if you don't like it. Seriously." Easy to say, but this isn't going to work. This kind of "just don't buy it" maxim grossly oversimplifies the situation and gets used post-facto to rationalize that the problem in question wasn't actually a problem because Apple is still around.