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If a parent were to ask a known pedophile to babysit you wouldn't blink at calling them bad people. It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. If you're un

If a parent were to ask a known pedophile to babysit you wouldn't blink at calling them bad people. It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents.

haswell 4y ago
> It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. This is a deeply fallacious argument, and these are not equivalent things. You seem to be concluding that the only thing that matters is outcome, not intent. Comparing a parent who makes a well intentioned mistake with a parent who intentionally puts their child in the care of a predator is ridiculous. One of these parents may even be criminally liable for their actions. > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents. It’s not a matter of comfort, but of effective communication and acknowledgment of nuance. Words have meaning, and boiling complex things down to hardline binary positions is rarely helpful. Yes, calling someone like this a bad parent is somewhat better than calling them a bad person, because the implications of the two accusations are drastically different. One implies a moral failing, while the other implies a lack of knowledge/understanding, which are two entirely different categories. I say somewhat, because these “bad parents” may still be doing almost everything right, and may not have been exposed to situations that would give them the wisdom to impart proper guidance to their kids on this particular topic. I know some truly lovely and sincere people who just aren’t very good at parenting yet. Every parent starts there. They know it, and they’re doing their best to learn and improve as they go. They grew up in sheltered environments and didn’t exactly have model parents to emulate. These are not bad people. A hacker who intentionally breaks a critical system in a hospital is a bad person. A freshly graduated sysadmin who causes an outage to the same system due to incompetence is not automatically a bad person. Both events may have similar outcomes, but to claim that the people involved belong in the same category is nonsensical.
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  I'm not reading all of that, sorry. If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement.
  - haswell 4y ago
    For what it's worth, it's a ~50 second read. > I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement. Being a bad basketball player doesn't automatically mean you're bad at all sports. And it certainly doesn't mean you're a bad person. > If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I mostly agree with this statement, but this isn't where we started. And just like failing at basketball doesn't mean you're failing at all athletic or sporting endeavors, failing at one aspect of parenting doesn't mean you're failing all aspects of parenting (an enormously complicated and diverse set of responsibilities). If a parent is failing the most critical aspects, or most aspects, yeah, they're bad parents. Bad parents still aren't automatically bad people. At this point, I think the horse has been beaten sufficiently.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      I think we mostly agree, which is why I said: > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents.

haswell 4y ago

> It's the same thing, this is clearly harmful. This is a deeply fallacious argument, and these are not equivalent things. You seem to be concluding that the only thing that matters is outcome, not intent. Comparing a parent who makes a well intentioned mistake with a parent who intentionally puts their child in the care of a predator is ridiculous. One of these parents may even be criminally liable for their actions. > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents. It’s not a matter of comfort, but of effective communication and acknowledgment of nuance. Words have meaning, and boiling complex things down to hardline binary positions is rarely helpful. Yes, calling someone like this a bad parent is somewhat better than calling them a bad person, because the implications of the two accusations are drastically different. One implies a moral failing, while the other implies a lack of knowledge/understanding, which are two entirely different categories. I say somewhat, because these “bad parents” may still be doing almost everything right, and may not have been exposed to situations that would give them the wisdom to impart proper guidance to their kids on this particular topic. I know some truly lovely and sincere people who just aren’t very good at parenting yet. Every parent starts there. They know it, and they’re doing their best to learn and improve as they go. They grew up in sheltered environments and didn’t exactly have model parents to emulate. These are not bad people. A hacker who intentionally breaks a critical system in a hospital is a bad person. A freshly graduated sysadmin who causes an outage to the same system due to incompetence is not automatically a bad person. Both events may have similar outcomes, but to claim that the people involved belong in the same category is nonsensical.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I'm not reading all of that, sorry. If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement.
- haswell 4y ago
  For what it's worth, it's a ~50 second read. > I'm a bad basketball player and my intent has fuckall to do with that judgement. Being a bad basketball player doesn't automatically mean you're bad at all sports. And it certainly doesn't mean you're a bad person. > If a parent isn't preparing children for life as an adult they're bad parents. I mostly agree with this statement, but this isn't where we started. And just like failing at basketball doesn't mean you're failing at all athletic or sporting endeavors, failing at one aspect of parenting doesn't mean you're failing all aspects of parenting (an enormously complicated and diverse set of responsibilities). If a parent is failing the most critical aspects, or most aspects, yeah, they're bad parents. Bad parents still aren't automatically bad people. At this point, I think the horse has been beaten sufficiently.
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    I think we mostly agree, which is why I said: > If you're uncomfortable with calling them bad people, then call them bad parents.