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> Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced... > ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month... I think both of those

> Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced... > ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month... I think both of those claims are demonstrably false.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago
Can you demonstrate them as such? And can you validate your demonstration by eliminating the content produced by bots and sock puppets?
- snapcaster 4y ago
  I see comments like this frequently on hackernews and i'm curious on your motivation. Do you actually use twitter so this comment isn't lining up with your expectations? Do you not use twitter and expect this person to justify their experience by doing further research? What is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this?
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    In order presented: Yes. No. You mean, it is not obvious? I am motivated by curiosity. A claim was made that is not supported. It isn't unreasonable to request such a claim to be validated by demonstration. Personally, I have not seen an increase in "hate" or violence or bigotry or any other -ism or -ist. I've seen people disagree in a much more whole-hearted way, while at the same time, seeing prompts for reducing the strength of language. For example, you get a pop up if you write "I think you are stupid" but not "I think you are silly." Quid pro quo: what is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this?
    - snapcaster 4y ago
      I guess it feels like this is just banter amongst bored people at work and demand for works cited comes off as sealioning or just maybe misreading the room
      - luckylion 4y ago
        I find that anything related to Twitter/Musk produces some of the lowest quality comments on HN, and the top comment in this thread is one of them. It's a reddit style "amirite?" comment that does not engage with the topic (Twitter says they've limited reach for "hateful" content, so "impressions" could be down, even if the total number of hateful tweets sent might be up, so it's absolutely not obvious, and it's very questionable how some random person would know which tweets had what amount of impressions), doesn't care to present any reasoning or data, and the user vanishes when asked to substantiate. Musk brings out the worst in some people. Hearing about him shuts down their brains and they "return to monkey", just throwing feces. And they're certainly not dumb, it just looks like those old spy movies with sleeper agents. One minute your friendly neighbor jokes and smiles and the next he hears some specific sentence on the radio and his programming takes over, his face freezes and he gets his gun and marches towards city hall. That's what I see happening to some people here when Musk gets mentioned.
        VikingCoder 4y ago
        Hi, I didn't vanish. I have a busy life. And HN has Guidelines [1], and you may want to re-read the last two: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. You appear to be violating both of those guidelines. You assert that my comment "does not engage with the topic". I disagree. I think I analyzed the submission, and found parts of it worth discussing. Why did I make the comment I did? I should have taken more time to establish myself, and I'm sorry I opted to quickly highlight rather than to explain. Allow me (now that I have a moment) to explain. It's a puff piece. Despite being a puff piece, does it make any actual claims? Yes. Hmmm - maybe it would be interesting to identify the actual claims. Are any of the claims actually falsifiable? Yes. Hmm - maybe it would be interesting to point out the claims that are actually falsifiable. Do I think any of the falsifiable claims are demonstrably false? Yes. Hmm - here they are. Am I sure that they are demonstrably false, and do I have the evidence to back that up? No. Darn. I can't say they're definitively false, but I can at least highlight the two that I have the strongest belief that yes, they are probably wrong. Hence the only thing I added to them: "I think both of those claims are demonstrably false." I'm sorry I didn't have time to go find the primary sources that would back up my belief. 1) Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced... Wow. If you scan through the comments complaining about my comment, I don't see anyone who seems to have any problem with me pointing this one out. We've all seen the articles about the layoffs, firings, and resignations. I believe a recent one identified that there is exactly one (1) person left, doing an important moderation job, in a major market...? I wish I had the reference at hand, to show a primary source. 2) ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month... If you scroll through the comments, I think you'll see some interesting discussion, including bringing up the Overton Window, and someone even provided references. (Great username, trs8080!) So, it appears folks on HN thought it was worth discussing. I'm glad to see their discussion. Maybe it would have happened without me pointing out that section, but maybe it wouldn't. Cheers. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >>Do you actually use twitter so this comment isn't lining up with your expectations? yes, and I see zero hate or other issues with content on my feed > What is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this? I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon, is some how a bad thing
    - trs8080 4y ago
      > I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon This is incorrect. "Based on a massive-scale experiment involving millions of Twitter users, a fine-grained analysis of political parties in seven countries, and 6.2 million news articles shared in the United States, this study carries out the most comprehensive audit of an algorithmic recommender system and its effects on political content. Results unveil that the political right enjoys higher amplification compared to the political left." - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8740571/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8740571/ "Twitter reportedly won't use an algorithm to crack down on white supremacists because some GOP politicians could end up getting barred too" - https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-algorithm-crackdown-white-supremacy-gop-politicians-report-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-algorithm-crackdown-...
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Nothing in your comment refutes my position. The very rules and actions of "Trust and safety" are what I am talking about, not what links users of the platform share. Try to actually talk about what I am complaining about
        trs8080 4y ago
        > Try to actually talk about what I am complaining about > > I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon I literally quoted what you talked about and responded to your claim - please try to improve your reading comprehension skills.
  - fernandotakai 4y ago
    i use twitter and have been using twitter for the past... fifteen years (my profile say "Joined October 2007"). my own twitter experience has not changed at all -- i'm seeing the same tweets i was seeing before and seeing none of the hate people are seeing. but, ofc, the plural of anecdote is not data.
  - philippejara 4y ago
    I personally do, and nothing has changed for me since he took over. I would like to see some semblance of a proof when someone tries to be as bold as to claim something is demonstrably false, he's not talking about having a different experience he is saying as a matter of fact that it is a false statement. For all the jokes about excessive sourcing that hacker news gets it's probably one of the things that keeps it from turning into yet another hearsay platform. This is genuinely the only place in the internet right now I can actually read and have a decent discussion about musk without it either turning into a hate circlejerk or a flamewar, would be nice to keep it that way.
    - VikingCoder 4y ago
      > he is saying as a matter of fact that it is a false statement Actually, I said "I think." If I had left off the "I think," then you would be correct about what I said.
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  Hi, given the layoffs, firings, and resignations, I think the claim "Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced..." is the one that has the burden of proof. The second claim is absolutely more nuanced, and I admit, will be much harder to falsify.
etchalon 4y ago
I think the last one might be "true-able" if they changed the internal classification for certain types of content. Third-parties haven't confirmed this, and their data shows the opposite, so I'd wager either it's an outright lie or a function of classification.
dragonwriter 4y ago
When Twitter determines what violates the policy, the numbers can be whatever Twitter needs them to be.
fundad 4y ago
no law against lying to your investors and regulators right?

> Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced... > ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month... I think both of those claims are demonstrably false.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago

Can you demonstrate them as such? And can you validate your demonstration by eliminating the content produced by bots and sock puppets?

snapcaster 4y ago
I see comments like this frequently on hackernews and i'm curious on your motivation. Do you actually use twitter so this comment isn't lining up with your expectations? Do you not use twitter and expect this person to justify their experience by doing further research? What is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this?
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  In order presented: Yes. No. You mean, it is not obvious? I am motivated by curiosity. A claim was made that is not supported. It isn't unreasonable to request such a claim to be validated by demonstration. Personally, I have not seen an increase in "hate" or violence or bigotry or any other -ism or -ist. I've seen people disagree in a much more whole-hearted way, while at the same time, seeing prompts for reducing the strength of language. For example, you get a pop up if you write "I think you are stupid" but not "I think you are silly." Quid pro quo: what is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this?
  - snapcaster 4y ago
    I guess it feels like this is just banter amongst bored people at work and demand for works cited comes off as sealioning or just maybe misreading the room
    - luckylion 4y ago
      I find that anything related to Twitter/Musk produces some of the lowest quality comments on HN, and the top comment in this thread is one of them. It's a reddit style "amirite?" comment that does not engage with the topic (Twitter says they've limited reach for "hateful" content, so "impressions" could be down, even if the total number of hateful tweets sent might be up, so it's absolutely not obvious, and it's very questionable how some random person would know which tweets had what amount of impressions), doesn't care to present any reasoning or data, and the user vanishes when asked to substantiate. Musk brings out the worst in some people. Hearing about him shuts down their brains and they "return to monkey", just throwing feces. And they're certainly not dumb, it just looks like those old spy movies with sleeper agents. One minute your friendly neighbor jokes and smiles and the next he hears some specific sentence on the radio and his programming takes over, his face freezes and he gets his gun and marches towards city hall. That's what I see happening to some people here when Musk gets mentioned.
      - VikingCoder 4y ago
        Hi, I didn't vanish. I have a busy life. And HN has Guidelines [1], and you may want to re-read the last two: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading. > Please don't post comments saying that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a semi-noob illusion, as old as the hills. You appear to be violating both of those guidelines. You assert that my comment "does not engage with the topic". I disagree. I think I analyzed the submission, and found parts of it worth discussing. Why did I make the comment I did? I should have taken more time to establish myself, and I'm sorry I opted to quickly highlight rather than to explain. Allow me (now that I have a moment) to explain. It's a puff piece. Despite being a puff piece, does it make any actual claims? Yes. Hmmm - maybe it would be interesting to identify the actual claims. Are any of the claims actually falsifiable? Yes. Hmm - maybe it would be interesting to point out the claims that are actually falsifiable. Do I think any of the falsifiable claims are demonstrably false? Yes. Hmm - here they are. Am I sure that they are demonstrably false, and do I have the evidence to back that up? No. Darn. I can't say they're definitively false, but I can at least highlight the two that I have the strongest belief that yes, they are probably wrong. Hence the only thing I added to them: "I think both of those claims are demonstrably false." I'm sorry I didn't have time to go find the primary sources that would back up my belief. 1) Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced... Wow. If you scan through the comments complaining about my comment, I don't see anyone who seems to have any problem with me pointing this one out. We've all seen the articles about the layoffs, firings, and resignations. I believe a recent one identified that there is exactly one (1) person left, doing an important moderation job, in a major market...? I wish I had the reference at hand, to show a primary source. 2) ...impressions on violative content are down over the past month... If you scroll through the comments, I think you'll see some interesting discussion, including bringing up the Overton Window, and someone even provided references. (Great username, trs8080!) So, it appears folks on HN thought it was worth discussing. I'm glad to see their discussion. Maybe it would have happened without me pointing out that section, but maybe it wouldn't. Cheers. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >>Do you actually use twitter so this comment isn't lining up with your expectations? yes, and I see zero hate or other issues with content on my feed > What is _actually_ motivating you to comment like this? I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon, is some how a bad thing
  - trs8080 4y ago
    > I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon This is incorrect. "Based on a massive-scale experiment involving millions of Twitter users, a fine-grained analysis of political parties in seven countries, and 6.2 million news articles shared in the United States, this study carries out the most comprehensive audit of an algorithmic recommender system and its effects on political content. Results unveil that the political right enjoys higher amplification compared to the political left." - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8740571/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8740571/ "Twitter reportedly won't use an algorithm to crack down on white supremacists because some GOP politicians could end up getting barred too" - https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-algorithm-crackdown-white-supremacy-gop-politicians-report-2019-4 https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-algorithm-crackdown-...
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Nothing in your comment refutes my position. The very rules and actions of "Trust and safety" are what I am talking about, not what links users of the platform share. Try to actually talk about what I am complaining about
      - trs8080 4y ago
        > Try to actually talk about what I am complaining about > > I hate when people attribute opening the Overton window to more than just Extreme left authoritarian political opinions, which is what Political Twitter was isolated to before elon I literally quoted what you talked about and responded to your claim - please try to improve your reading comprehension skills.
- fernandotakai 4y ago
  i use twitter and have been using twitter for the past... fifteen years (my profile say "Joined October 2007"). my own twitter experience has not changed at all -- i'm seeing the same tweets i was seeing before and seeing none of the hate people are seeing. but, ofc, the plural of anecdote is not data.
- philippejara 4y ago
  I personally do, and nothing has changed for me since he took over. I would like to see some semblance of a proof when someone tries to be as bold as to claim something is demonstrably false, he's not talking about having a different experience he is saying as a matter of fact that it is a false statement. For all the jokes about excessive sourcing that hacker news gets it's probably one of the things that keeps it from turning into yet another hearsay platform. This is genuinely the only place in the internet right now I can actually read and have a decent discussion about musk without it either turning into a hate circlejerk or a flamewar, would be nice to keep it that way.
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    > he is saying as a matter of fact that it is a false statement Actually, I said "I think." If I had left off the "I think," then you would be correct about what I said.
VikingCoder 4y ago
Hi, given the layoffs, firings, and resignations, I think the claim "Our Trust & Safety team... remains strong and well-resourced..." is the one that has the burden of proof. The second claim is absolutely more nuanced, and I admit, will be much harder to falsify.

etchalon 4y ago

I think the last one might be "true-able" if they changed the internal classification for certain types of content. Third-parties haven't confirmed this, and their data shows the opposite, so I'd wager either it's an outright lie or a function of classification.

dragonwriter 4y ago

When Twitter determines what violates the policy, the numbers can be whatever Twitter needs them to be.

fundad 4y ago

no law against lying to your investors and regulators right?