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Doesn’t this beg the question of what exactly “consequences” means? Most people would agree free speech doesn’t mean a local restaurant has to serve you. But w

Doesn’t this beg the question of what exactly “consequences” means? Most people would agree free speech doesn’t mean a local restaurant has to serve you. But what about other businesses? Can dentists refuse to treat you? Can hospitals refuse to give you life saving treatments based on your political views? Many hospitals in the US are private businesses. Most people agree that social networks can kick you out. But what about ISPs? Can they refuse your business? And if ISPs can refuse your business, what about water or electricity companies? Certainly freedom of speech means freedom from certain consequences. As codified in the First Amendment it means freedom from certain legal consequences. Of course freedom of speech is broader than 1A though.

ceejayoz 4y ago
> Can dentists refuse to treat you? Yes. > Can hospitals refuse to give you life saving treatments based on your political views? Ask a Catholic hospital to do an abortion. > And if ISPs can refuse your business, what about water or electricity companies? We have specific law for these sorts of scenarios. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility
- janalsncm 4y ago
  I wouldn’t consider Catholic hospitals abortions to be the same situation. They don’t give abortions to anyone. That’s not the same as refusing a particular patient because they don’t like things that patient has said in the past.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
    But there have been CVS/Walgreens pharmacists who refuse to offer birth control or the morning after pill.
    - janalsncm 4y ago
      Still, that’s not refusing service to a particular customer based on that customer’s speech. I believe that pharmacist would refuse any customer. My question is about a pharmacy which would refuse e.g. Alex Jones because of things he’s said in the past.
  - not2b 4y ago
    But they treat pregnant women, and somethings things go wrong. Very wrong. The procedures to deal with incomplete miscarriages are the same as for abortion. Delaying such procedures can have horrible consequences. Some Catholic hospitals have played this game, delaying and delaying until sepsis or some other condition becomes life threatening. If they wait too long, the pregnant woman may die.
    - janalsncm 4y ago
      I agree that abortion is sometimes necessary but that’s not really what I’m asking. Since we are talking about cancel culture I am asking what the spectrum of consequences should be for unpopular speech. One potential consequence could be that a hospital refuses to treat someone who has said something unpopular. For example Alex Jones has a heart attack, should a hospital deny him because of who he is? Note that my question is also not about what the law says, but what it should be. My question is, should a hospital be able to deny treatment to a person based on that person’s previous speech? Is potentially being denied at the emergency room just another “consequence” of saying unpopular things? What if the hospital is privately owned, and the potential patient has slandered the owner or doctor in the past?
P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I agree with your point, but want to point out that in the US utility companies are regulated by local government and they cannot refuse service. Not only can they not refuse service, they MUST service all areas, even if it's at a loss (not profitable). And when utility companies try to stop servicing areas because of the profit loss, these local governments absolutely will fine the shit out of them for it. That doesn't change your point, but that particular example isn't a good one.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Sorry, I should have been more clear. My questions aren’t about what the law is, they’re about what the law should be. Some people may believe that ISPs shouldn’t be required to service everyone.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-angeles-shut-off-water-power-houses-hosting-large-parties-gatherings/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-angeles-shut-off-water-powe... Water and power shut off to houses having parties during lockdown. Certainly a form of protest, and assembly, and yet here we are.
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    A declared state of emergency has legal effects like this. We've long accepted limits on assembly; pretty much any building you enter other than a private home will have a "maximum capacity x people, by order of the fire marshal" placard somewhere.
    - geraldwhen 4y ago
      It was clear overreach. I believe anyone reasonable saw it as overreach at the time. Using Covid as an excuse for emergency executive powers was a failing of state and local governments across the US. While las Angeles was cutting power to houses, my kids were in private school in person building life skills. So many of their peers are socially stunted. It’s sad.
ABeeSea 4y ago
Hospitals are covered under EMTALA so if it’s truly emergency and they accept Medicare, they are legally forced to. A hospital that doesn’t take Medicare has no obligation to give you any treatments.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  Fair enough, I’ll take your word on what the law says. What if I live in an area where there’s only one hospital and it doesn’t take Medicare, do I just need to watch what I say so I don’t piss them off and they deny me life saving treatment? Even if that may happen to be legal, is that what the law should be?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lern_too_spel 4y ago
> Can dentists refuse to treat you? If you're a raging asshole, yes.
- janalsncm 4y ago
  I guess so. But what if the dentist simply doesn’t like your politics? (Interpret this however you like: Democrat/Republican, pro/anti union, pro/anti Ukrainian sovereignty, etc. Suffice it to say, he doesn’t like something you wrote on Facebook.) And what if that dentist is the only one within 50 miles? Even if it happens to be legal for the dentist to deny you, should it be? Aside from the narrow question here, my broader point is that “consequences for your actions” is the whole question we should be discussing and I don’t think the term “cancel culture” is that helpful in actually exploring that issue.

ceejayoz 4y ago

> Can dentists refuse to treat you? Yes. > Can hospitals refuse to give you life saving treatments based on your political views? Ask a Catholic hospital to do an abortion. > And if ISPs can refuse your business, what about water or electricity companies? We have specific law for these sorts of scenarios. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_utility

janalsncm 4y ago
I wouldn’t consider Catholic hospitals abortions to be the same situation. They don’t give abortions to anyone. That’s not the same as refusing a particular patient because they don’t like things that patient has said in the past.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  But there have been CVS/Walgreens pharmacists who refuse to offer birth control or the morning after pill.
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    Still, that’s not refusing service to a particular customer based on that customer’s speech. I believe that pharmacist would refuse any customer. My question is about a pharmacy which would refuse e.g. Alex Jones because of things he’s said in the past.
- not2b 4y ago
  But they treat pregnant women, and somethings things go wrong. Very wrong. The procedures to deal with incomplete miscarriages are the same as for abortion. Delaying such procedures can have horrible consequences. Some Catholic hospitals have played this game, delaying and delaying until sepsis or some other condition becomes life threatening. If they wait too long, the pregnant woman may die.
  - janalsncm 4y ago
    I agree that abortion is sometimes necessary but that’s not really what I’m asking. Since we are talking about cancel culture I am asking what the spectrum of consequences should be for unpopular speech. One potential consequence could be that a hospital refuses to treat someone who has said something unpopular. For example Alex Jones has a heart attack, should a hospital deny him because of who he is? Note that my question is also not about what the law says, but what it should be. My question is, should a hospital be able to deny treatment to a person based on that person’s previous speech? Is potentially being denied at the emergency room just another “consequence” of saying unpopular things? What if the hospital is privately owned, and the potential patient has slandered the owner or doctor in the past?

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I agree with your point, but want to point out that in the US utility companies are regulated by local government and they cannot refuse service. Not only can they not refuse service, they MUST service all areas, even if it's at a loss (not profitable). And when utility companies try to stop servicing areas because of the profit loss, these local governments absolutely will fine the shit out of them for it. That doesn't change your point, but that particular example isn't a good one.

janalsncm 4y ago
Sorry, I should have been more clear. My questions aren’t about what the law is, they’re about what the law should be. Some people may believe that ISPs shouldn’t be required to service everyone.
geraldwhen 4y ago
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-angeles-shut-off-water-power-houses-hosting-large-parties-gatherings/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/los-angeles-shut-off-water-powe... Water and power shut off to houses having parties during lockdown. Certainly a form of protest, and assembly, and yet here we are.
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  A declared state of emergency has legal effects like this. We've long accepted limits on assembly; pretty much any building you enter other than a private home will have a "maximum capacity x people, by order of the fire marshal" placard somewhere.
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    It was clear overreach. I believe anyone reasonable saw it as overreach at the time. Using Covid as an excuse for emergency executive powers was a failing of state and local governments across the US. While las Angeles was cutting power to houses, my kids were in private school in person building life skills. So many of their peers are socially stunted. It’s sad.

ABeeSea 4y ago

Hospitals are covered under EMTALA so if it’s truly emergency and they accept Medicare, they are legally forced to. A hospital that doesn’t take Medicare has no obligation to give you any treatments.

janalsncm 4y ago
Fair enough, I’ll take your word on what the law says. What if I live in an area where there’s only one hospital and it doesn’t take Medicare, do I just need to watch what I say so I don’t piss them off and they deny me life saving treatment? Even if that may happen to be legal, is that what the law should be?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

lern_too_spel 4y ago

> Can dentists refuse to treat you? If you're a raging asshole, yes.

janalsncm 4y ago
I guess so. But what if the dentist simply doesn’t like your politics? (Interpret this however you like: Democrat/Republican, pro/anti union, pro/anti Ukrainian sovereignty, etc. Suffice it to say, he doesn’t like something you wrote on Facebook.) And what if that dentist is the only one within 50 miles? Even if it happens to be legal for the dentist to deny you, should it be? Aside from the narrow question here, my broader point is that “consequences for your actions” is the whole question we should be discussing and I don’t think the term “cancel culture” is that helpful in actually exploring that issue.