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Well, bullying is many things, and I think the exact issue is that the conversation lacks nuance. As I mentioned in my first post, conflict which is evenly matc

Well, bullying is many things, and I think the exact issue is that the conversation lacks nuance. As I mentioned in my first post, conflict which is evenly matched should not be regarded the same way as conflict which is not. If you are attacked by a group of people, or someone substantially larger than you, then intervention is warranted. Ideally this intervention is carried out by older peers. If you're being bullied by one of your peers, you need to learn the skills to resolve that conflict. Sometimes escalation is the best tool, sometimes avoidance is. There's no panacea, but it's something we all need to learn.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cannaceo 4y ago
Can you give an example of what being bullied by a peer would look like and what skills would be required to resolve that conflict?
- thegrimmest 4y ago
  If one of your classmates takes to pushing you around, taking your stuff, embarrassing you, calling you names, etc. This is normal behaviour in apes who are trying to establish a dominance hierarchy. The bully likely sees you as a soft target who is easy to dominate. The best course is to correct that assumption - escalate conflict - fight back, fight dirty. It's the same rationale as in prison - you don't want to end up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. The best way to avoid that is to make friends and be more trouble than you are worth.
  - bentley 4y ago
    In adulthood I’ve never had to resolve a problematic interaction through physical violence, and I hope to never have to. The methods I have used—distancing myself from the bully, reporting to management/HR/oversight agencies—are quite like the methods I used to avoid bullying in childhood. I never used violence back then either. The only meaningful difference between now and then is that in adulthood I have more such avenues and they are much more effective. The fact that they were less effective in childhood is an indictment of the administrative and social structure we have constructed schools to have, not of nonviolent methods themselves. I reject your assertion that it’s helpful for a bullied child to model behavior on chimpanzees in the jungle or criminals in prison. Becoming violent in childhood would have had negative long‐term effects on me, and I’m glad nobody back then gave me the “advice” you’re sharing now.
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Or perhaps the conclusion here is that administrative intervention is not effective on children the same way as it is on adults.
      - bentley 4y ago
        Given that my interactions with adults outside of school (and later, when I was pulled out of public school to be homeschooled) were almost always positive, I’m willing to specifically blame school administration and/or their techniques.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I think you problably have some sampling bias in your adult interactions. Im guessing most of them don't involve the lowest functioning portion of the population, eg, people who regularly comment violence, rape, and beat their wives, or are currently incarcerated. Public schools cut across the entire population spectrum and include children with legitimate social and cognitive deficiencies. Adults also have more developed brains and better incentives to obey. a hostile worker might still care about losing their income, car, or house. It is hard to find comparable incentives for children and young adults.
        foldr 4y ago
        >I think you problably have some sampling bias in your adult interactions. Is there anyone who doesn't have 'sampling bias' in their adult interactions? This seems like a misapplication of a technical term.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I think it is a fair description of the error. "the well adjusted adults I know easily resolve issues without violence" does not mean that you should expect the same results for all adults, or for all children.
  - leto_ii 4y ago
    > It's the same rationale as in prison - you don't want to end up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. The simple fact that you think it's not a problem to somewhat approvingly compare schools to prisons is already a bad sign. Schools shouldn't be like prisons. Prisons shouldn't be like prisons either, but that's another story...
    - thegrimmest 4y ago
      Approval has nothing to do with it - we are apes living in dominance hierarchies, children even more so.
      - leto_ii 4y ago
        That's just not true. There are many kinds of social relations, dominance being just one particularity nasty one. Other apes also exhibit a whole range of social relations. It doesn't have to be a dog eat dog world out there, and most of the time it actually isn't.
        thegrimmest 4y ago
        Absolutely, and there are many kinds of social interactions at school besides bullying. My point was only that "bullying" is an expression of normal hierarchy negotiation/construction in children and should be treated as such.
darkarmani 4y ago
> As I mentioned in my first post, conflict which is evenly matched should not be regarded the same way as conflict which is not. This was covered by the paper. You are talking about Peer Victimization without bullying. Bullying is a form of peer victimization in which there is a power imbalance (size, numbers, status, etc).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cannaceo 4y ago

Can you give an example of what being bullied by a peer would look like and what skills would be required to resolve that conflict?

thegrimmest 4y ago
If one of your classmates takes to pushing you around, taking your stuff, embarrassing you, calling you names, etc. This is normal behaviour in apes who are trying to establish a dominance hierarchy. The bully likely sees you as a soft target who is easy to dominate. The best course is to correct that assumption - escalate conflict - fight back, fight dirty. It's the same rationale as in prison - you don't want to end up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. The best way to avoid that is to make friends and be more trouble than you are worth.
- bentley 4y ago
  In adulthood I’ve never had to resolve a problematic interaction through physical violence, and I hope to never have to. The methods I have used—distancing myself from the bully, reporting to management/HR/oversight agencies—are quite like the methods I used to avoid bullying in childhood. I never used violence back then either. The only meaningful difference between now and then is that in adulthood I have more such avenues and they are much more effective. The fact that they were less effective in childhood is an indictment of the administrative and social structure we have constructed schools to have, not of nonviolent methods themselves. I reject your assertion that it’s helpful for a bullied child to model behavior on chimpanzees in the jungle or criminals in prison. Becoming violent in childhood would have had negative long‐term effects on me, and I’m glad nobody back then gave me the “advice” you’re sharing now.
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Or perhaps the conclusion here is that administrative intervention is not effective on children the same way as it is on adults.
    - bentley 4y ago
      Given that my interactions with adults outside of school (and later, when I was pulled out of public school to be homeschooled) were almost always positive, I’m willing to specifically blame school administration and/or their techniques.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I think you problably have some sampling bias in your adult interactions. Im guessing most of them don't involve the lowest functioning portion of the population, eg, people who regularly comment violence, rape, and beat their wives, or are currently incarcerated. Public schools cut across the entire population spectrum and include children with legitimate social and cognitive deficiencies. Adults also have more developed brains and better incentives to obey. a hostile worker might still care about losing their income, car, or house. It is hard to find comparable incentives for children and young adults.
        foldr 4y ago
        >I think you problably have some sampling bias in your adult interactions. Is there anyone who doesn't have 'sampling bias' in their adult interactions? This seems like a misapplication of a technical term.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I think it is a fair description of the error. "the well adjusted adults I know easily resolve issues without violence" does not mean that you should expect the same results for all adults, or for all children.
- leto_ii 4y ago
  > It's the same rationale as in prison - you don't want to end up at the bottom of the dominance hierarchy. The simple fact that you think it's not a problem to somewhat approvingly compare schools to prisons is already a bad sign. Schools shouldn't be like prisons. Prisons shouldn't be like prisons either, but that's another story...
  - thegrimmest 4y ago
    Approval has nothing to do with it - we are apes living in dominance hierarchies, children even more so.
    - leto_ii 4y ago
      That's just not true. There are many kinds of social relations, dominance being just one particularity nasty one. Other apes also exhibit a whole range of social relations. It doesn't have to be a dog eat dog world out there, and most of the time it actually isn't.
      - thegrimmest 4y ago
        Absolutely, and there are many kinds of social interactions at school besides bullying. My point was only that "bullying" is an expression of normal hierarchy negotiation/construction in children and should be treated as such.

darkarmani 4y ago

> As I mentioned in my first post, conflict which is evenly matched should not be regarded the same way as conflict which is not. This was covered by the paper. You are talking about Peer Victimization without bullying. Bullying is a form of peer victimization in which there is a power imbalance (size, numbers, status, etc).