4 ms·

Start by banning words like "upskill" and "learnings"

by whydid 4y ago

scubbo 4y ago
I'm not a fan of those words either, but this is not helpful advice. Corporate argot, while it does signal a particular style, isn't inherently inferior at communication. A sentence will be just as clear, meaningful, and useful if the word "lessons" is substituted for "learnings". Focus on advice that will actually make a difference to the outcome, rather than unhelpfully signalling your disdain for corporatism.
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  No, you're wrong. I made the same suggestion. "Communication" starts with realizing that you have to meet people where they are, not expect them to adopt your style. You have to have some respect for them. "Avoid unnecessary adverbs" would be another easy one ("unhelpfully signalling your disdain")
  - tqi 4y ago
    > "Communication" starts with realizing that you have to meet people where they are, not expect them to adopt your style. You have to have some respect for them. Castigating people for word choices that you personally dislike while simultaneously advising them to "not expect them to adopt your style" is hilarious.
    - UIUC_06 4y ago
      What's hilarious is flame language like "castigating" and "personally dislike." Corporate is widely and justifiably condemned. It's not just a personal thing. Even on this thread.
      - tqi 4y ago
        https://www.google.com/search?q=castigating https://www.google.com/search?q=castigating since you seem confused by whether that word is "flame language" or merely descriptive. Calling it "hilarious" was definitely the work of a flamer though.
        UIUC_06 4y ago
        "you seem confused" definitely is, though.
        tqi 4y ago
        misinformed?
  - scubbo 4y ago
    "unhelpfully" was deliberately chosen, to indicate that signalling disdain isn't helpful to the goal of teaching OP how to help their team. One could argue that it's redundant ("Focus on X, rather than Y" does imply that Y is unhelpful), but even so; reiteration for emphasis is a perfectly cromulent stylistic choice. Surely if the OP is trying to help their team to communicate in a corporate environment, then teaching them the shibboleths like "upskill" will be helpful to (as you rightly suggest) meet the readers where they are? The team will be free to use them or not, as they choose. Whereas "banning" those words can only handicap their ability to corporate-cosplay, if that's something they want to do.
    - UIUC_06 4y ago
      Nobody wants to use BS words like "upskill" and "learnings" except the corporate drones who are preaching them. If you have respect for your readers, then you use language they can relate to.
      - scubbo 4y ago
        What if your readers are those same corporate drones? Not everyone has the luxury of only ever interacting with Real Developers(tm).
        UIUC_06 4y ago
        Ah. Then you have to use their language. It signals that you're one of them.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        scubbo 4y ago
        Unfortunately, that is sometimes optimal. Regardless: I suggest you check the sibling thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33805016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33805016), where we explore more relevant considerations - not just "what group are you masquerading as?", but also "does the use of this jargon result in fuzzy thinking or poor structure independent of the actual words used?" (/u/munificent suggests yes, I suggest that they're often correlated but there's not necessarily a causal link - cutting out those phrases will not _in itself_ result in better-considered, clearer, more-meaningful communication)
- munificent 4y ago
  Strong disagree. Using jargon like "upskill" is indicative of the kind of thinking that leads to bad writing. It's a very easy to habit to fall into where you "write" by just sort of stitching together the nearest cliches, phrases, and jargon that come to mind. It's how we often talk and how we often write. Unfortunately, writing like that is never good. By being a lazy pastiche of the familiar, it swaddles what you're actually trying to say in layers of non-information carrying fluff. To improve your writing, you have to break that habit. You have to train yourself to introduce deliberate thought into the step between "vague idea in my head" and "linear sequence of words". When you force yourself to cut out the jargon, that inconvient friction gives you a moment's pause to remind yourself to think about what you're trying to say. Also, jargon usally has negative value. It says the same thing as simpler non-jargon words, but mixes some in-group signalling with it. In-group signalling can be a useful positive signal ("Trust me, I know what I'm talking about because you can see that I've absorbed the culture") but it can also be alienating for readers that don't feel like comfortable members of the tribe. I try to use a little jargon here and there just to reassure people that I know the lingo and context of the local culture but otherwise I mostly focus on saying what I mean.
  - scubbo 4y ago
    I agree with almost all of what you're saying, but I still stand by the point that _simply_ advising someone to "ban those words" is not helpful, especially when that guidance is delivered without the (correct and insightful!) description you gave of _why_ that jargon might be a "writing smell". A good writer can write meaningful, clear, useful communication which still uses buzzwords (they'd probably choose not to, but they _could_); a bad writer who is _only_ advised to avoid them will reproduce the same empty sentences with different words. Telling someone not to do something without telling them _why_ is the kind of thing you do to a child you're trying to keep safe, not something you do to an adult you're trying to train and...upskill ;)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - scubbo 4y ago

Start by banning words like "upskill" and "learnings"

by whydid 4y ago

Start by banning words like "upskill" and "learnings"

I'm not a fan of those words either, but this is not helpful advice. Corporate argot, while it does signal a particular style, isn't inherently inferior at communication. A sentence will be just as clear, meaningful, and useful if the word "lessons" is substituted for "learnings". Focus on advice that will actually make a difference to the outcome, rather than unhelpfully signalling your disdain for corporatism.

UIUC_06 4y ago
No, you're wrong. I made the same suggestion. "Communication" starts with realizing that you have to meet people where they are, not expect them to adopt your style. You have to have some respect for them. "Avoid unnecessary adverbs" would be another easy one ("unhelpfully signalling your disdain")
- tqi 4y ago
  > "Communication" starts with realizing that you have to meet people where they are, not expect them to adopt your style. You have to have some respect for them. Castigating people for word choices that you personally dislike while simultaneously advising them to "not expect them to adopt your style" is hilarious.
  - UIUC_06 4y ago
    What's hilarious is flame language like "castigating" and "personally dislike." Corporate is widely and justifiably condemned. It's not just a personal thing. Even on this thread.
    - tqi 4y ago
      https://www.google.com/search?q=castigating https://www.google.com/search?q=castigating since you seem confused by whether that word is "flame language" or merely descriptive. Calling it "hilarious" was definitely the work of a flamer though.
      - UIUC_06 4y ago
        "you seem confused" definitely is, though.
        tqi 4y ago
        misinformed?
- scubbo 4y ago
  "unhelpfully" was deliberately chosen, to indicate that signalling disdain isn't helpful to the goal of teaching OP how to help their team. One could argue that it's redundant ("Focus on X, rather than Y" does imply that Y is unhelpful), but even so; reiteration for emphasis is a perfectly cromulent stylistic choice. Surely if the OP is trying to help their team to communicate in a corporate environment, then teaching them the shibboleths like "upskill" will be helpful to (as you rightly suggest) meet the readers where they are? The team will be free to use them or not, as they choose. Whereas "banning" those words can only handicap their ability to corporate-cosplay, if that's something they want to do.
  - UIUC_06 4y ago
    Nobody wants to use BS words like "upskill" and "learnings" except the corporate drones who are preaching them. If you have respect for your readers, then you use language they can relate to.
    - scubbo 4y ago
      What if your readers are those same corporate drones? Not everyone has the luxury of only ever interacting with Real Developers(tm).
      - UIUC_06 4y ago
        Ah. Then you have to use their language. It signals that you're one of them.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        scubbo 4y ago
        Unfortunately, that is sometimes optimal. Regardless: I suggest you check the sibling thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33805016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33805016), where we explore more relevant considerations - not just "what group are you masquerading as?", but also "does the use of this jargon result in fuzzy thinking or poor structure independent of the actual words used?" (/u/munificent suggests yes, I suggest that they're often correlated but there's not necessarily a causal link - cutting out those phrases will not _in itself_ result in better-considered, clearer, more-meaningful communication)
munificent 4y ago
Strong disagree. Using jargon like "upskill" is indicative of the kind of thinking that leads to bad writing. It's a very easy to habit to fall into where you "write" by just sort of stitching together the nearest cliches, phrases, and jargon that come to mind. It's how we often talk and how we often write. Unfortunately, writing like that is never good. By being a lazy pastiche of the familiar, it swaddles what you're actually trying to say in layers of non-information carrying fluff. To improve your writing, you have to break that habit. You have to train yourself to introduce deliberate thought into the step between "vague idea in my head" and "linear sequence of words". When you force yourself to cut out the jargon, that inconvient friction gives you a moment's pause to remind yourself to think about what you're trying to say. Also, jargon usally has negative value. It says the same thing as simpler non-jargon words, but mixes some in-group signalling with it. In-group signalling can be a useful positive signal ("Trust me, I know what I'm talking about because you can see that I've absorbed the culture") but it can also be alienating for readers that don't feel like comfortable members of the tribe. I try to use a little jargon here and there just to reassure people that I know the lingo and context of the local culture but otherwise I mostly focus on saying what I mean.
- scubbo 4y ago
  I agree with almost all of what you're saying, but I still stand by the point that _simply_ advising someone to "ban those words" is not helpful, especially when that guidance is delivered without the (correct and insightful!) description you gave of _why_ that jargon might be a "writing smell". A good writer can write meaningful, clear, useful communication which still uses buzzwords (they'd probably choose not to, but they _could_); a bad writer who is _only_ advised to avoid them will reproduce the same empty sentences with different words. Telling someone not to do something without telling them _why_ is the kind of thing you do to a child you're trying to keep safe, not something you do to an adult you're trying to train and...upskill ;)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - scubbo 4y ago