9 ms·

I think its perspective. Drawing a parallel to Elon Musk. He says his political leanings haven't changed. Draw a line marked Far Left, Left, Sort of Left, Mi

I think its perspective. Drawing a parallel to Elon Musk. He says his political leanings haven't changed. Draw a line marked Far Left, Left, Sort of Left, Middle, Sort of Right, Right, Far Right. He says he was Left or Sort of Left, but somebody dragged the line way to the left. He is where he always was, but the line has moved.

Aromasin 4y ago
There's a concept for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window
pdntspa 4y ago
I don't know, has he always been a cheerleader for Trump? There are some things he is doing now that I don't remember him doing before that suggest his political stance has changed.
- chrchang523 4y ago
  He believes that Trump should have the same broadcast rights that other political figures do, but he prefers DeSantis to Trump: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-ron-desantis-president-election-trump-rcna58804 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-ron...
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    But there's almost no difference between the two, politically speaking, so that doesn't mean much.
canucklady 4y ago
It's worth pointing out Elon is being disingenuous. He was pro-Democrat (not Left) when they were kowtowing to the tech industry and handing out green technology subsidies. Now that there's scepticism of Big Tech oligarchs and easy money has dried up he's pivoted to extreme right-libertarian to try and dismantle any regulation and dodge as many taxes as possible. He's also realized there's a marketing opportunity to rebrand his electric cars as alt-right. All those dudes with "fuck your prius" stickers on their f150s can now buy a model y to virtue signal to their pals.
- slowhand09 4y ago
  "rebrand his electric cars as alt-right"? Seriously? I can see why there is such a division in society. I don't know anyone I'd consider alt-right, or alt-left for that matter. But you are able to channel his intentions. And you just branded pickup drivers as alt-right and characterized them as people who would buy electric cars for virtue signaling. I do know many pickup owners. Most do hard work, requiring pickups to transport tools, crews, equipment. Of those, the ones disparaging Priuses typically do so because they get stuck doing 10mph below the speed limit in the left lane while they are trying to get to a jobsite.
wpietri 4y ago
Nah. We live in an age of asymmetric polarization. XKCD has a good rendering of the DW-NOMINATE data. Look especially at the US House since Reagan: https://xkcd.com/1127/ https://xkcd.com/1127/ The right has moved far more than the left. Just looking at today's news, we find a prominent right-wing activist was convicted of plotting to overthrow the government: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63802649 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63802649 The only area I think you could unequivocally say the US left has progressed on is civil rights for LGBT+ people. But in terms of things like labor rights, a social safety net, environmental conservation, gun control, election integrity, and business regulation, I'd say the center of the US left hasn't moved much in decades, much to the frustration of the more activist portion of the left. Note that people from other countries often see the Democratic Party as a center-right party.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  More reputable sources find that polarization is largely symmetrical: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2014/06/12/section-1-growing-ideological-consistency/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2014/06/12/section-1-gr...
  - wpietri 4y ago
    That is not a more reputable source. The XKCD thing is a graph of highly regarded and more rigorous social science work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOMINATE_(scaling_method) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOMINATE_(scaling_method) Further, I think the Pew stuff is flawed in a number of ways. One, it comes after the Reagan era, missing a time DW-NOMINATE shows as important to right-wing polarization. Two, it doesn't include the Trump era, when polarization hugely spiked. Third, and most important, 9 out of the 10 questions are not suited for directly measuring ideology. The one I think is actually a decent measure of ideology is "Homosexuality should be discouraged by society" vs "Homosexuality should be accepted by society". The rest of them are practical questions relative to the circumstances of the day. E.g., "The government today can't afford to do much more to help the needy" is a question that's explicitly about the current state of the budget. If the budget improves, then more people should answer that as yes regardless of ideology. The measure I'd rather see is the extent of ideological litmus tests for access to power. E.g., look at the way the right's orthodoxy on abortion has hardened over the years. In the 1970s it was possible to be a pro-choice Republican and a pro-choice evangelical Christian. Now neither is acceptable, so much so that the most prominent Republican pro-choice group just gave up a few years back: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/opinion/abortion-rights-republican-party-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/opinion/abortion-rights-r... Or you could look at the way large portions of the Republican party have polarized around things that are provably false, like that Trump won the 2020 election, that January 6th was a left-wing false flag, or that ivermetcin is a good way to treat covid. That is wildly asymmetrical polarization, and it drove litmus tests for Republican candidates across the country. Nothing similar exists on the left.
otikik 4y ago
Well there’s no “left” on the United States, so he’s partially right.
systemvoltage 4y ago
These days, I agree more with Republicans than Democrats. It used to be exclusively Democrats during Obama days. I've always been a classical liberal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism These values are unthinkable for progressives today.

Aromasin 4y ago

There's a concept for that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

pdntspa 4y ago

I don't know, has he always been a cheerleader for Trump? There are some things he is doing now that I don't remember him doing before that suggest his political stance has changed.

chrchang523 4y ago
He believes that Trump should have the same broadcast rights that other political figures do, but he prefers DeSantis to Trump: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-ron-desantis-president-election-trump-rcna58804 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/elon-musk-ron...
- JohnFen 4y ago
  But there's almost no difference between the two, politically speaking, so that doesn't mean much.

canucklady 4y ago

It's worth pointing out Elon is being disingenuous. He was pro-Democrat (not Left) when they were kowtowing to the tech industry and handing out green technology subsidies. Now that there's scepticism of Big Tech oligarchs and easy money has dried up he's pivoted to extreme right-libertarian to try and dismantle any regulation and dodge as many taxes as possible. He's also realized there's a marketing opportunity to rebrand his electric cars as alt-right. All those dudes with "fuck your prius" stickers on their f150s can now buy a model y to virtue signal to their pals.

slowhand09 4y ago
"rebrand his electric cars as alt-right"? Seriously? I can see why there is such a division in society. I don't know anyone I'd consider alt-right, or alt-left for that matter. But you are able to channel his intentions. And you just branded pickup drivers as alt-right and characterized them as people who would buy electric cars for virtue signaling. I do know many pickup owners. Most do hard work, requiring pickups to transport tools, crews, equipment. Of those, the ones disparaging Priuses typically do so because they get stuck doing 10mph below the speed limit in the left lane while they are trying to get to a jobsite.

wpietri 4y ago

Nah. We live in an age of asymmetric polarization. XKCD has a good rendering of the DW-NOMINATE data. Look especially at the US House since Reagan: https://xkcd.com/1127/ https://xkcd.com/1127/ The right has moved far more than the left. Just looking at today's news, we find a prominent right-wing activist was convicted of plotting to overthrow the government: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63802649 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-63802649 The only area I think you could unequivocally say the US left has progressed on is civil rights for LGBT+ people. But in terms of things like labor rights, a social safety net, environmental conservation, gun control, election integrity, and business regulation, I'd say the center of the US left hasn't moved much in decades, much to the frustration of the more activist portion of the left. Note that people from other countries often see the Democratic Party as a center-right party.

Manuel_D 4y ago
More reputable sources find that polarization is largely symmetrical: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2014/06/12/section-1-growing-ideological-consistency/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2014/06/12/section-1-gr...
- wpietri 4y ago
  That is not a more reputable source. The XKCD thing is a graph of highly regarded and more rigorous social science work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOMINATE_(scaling_method) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOMINATE_(scaling_method) Further, I think the Pew stuff is flawed in a number of ways. One, it comes after the Reagan era, missing a time DW-NOMINATE shows as important to right-wing polarization. Two, it doesn't include the Trump era, when polarization hugely spiked. Third, and most important, 9 out of the 10 questions are not suited for directly measuring ideology. The one I think is actually a decent measure of ideology is "Homosexuality should be discouraged by society" vs "Homosexuality should be accepted by society". The rest of them are practical questions relative to the circumstances of the day. E.g., "The government today can't afford to do much more to help the needy" is a question that's explicitly about the current state of the budget. If the budget improves, then more people should answer that as yes regardless of ideology. The measure I'd rather see is the extent of ideological litmus tests for access to power. E.g., look at the way the right's orthodoxy on abortion has hardened over the years. In the 1970s it was possible to be a pro-choice Republican and a pro-choice evangelical Christian. Now neither is acceptable, so much so that the most prominent Republican pro-choice group just gave up a few years back: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/opinion/abortion-rights-republican-party-women.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/24/opinion/abortion-rights-r... Or you could look at the way large portions of the Republican party have polarized around things that are provably false, like that Trump won the 2020 election, that January 6th was a left-wing false flag, or that ivermetcin is a good way to treat covid. That is wildly asymmetrical polarization, and it drove litmus tests for Republican candidates across the country. Nothing similar exists on the left.

otikik 4y ago

Well there’s no “left” on the United States, so he’s partially right.

systemvoltage 4y ago

These days, I agree more with Republicans than Democrats. It used to be exclusively Democrats during Obama days. I've always been a classical liberal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism These values are unthinkable for progressives today.