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I've gotten this feedback from those around me for years. Even before I was a coder, when I was an ESL teacher in China, I had multiple students approach me (t

I've gotten this feedback from those around me for years. Even before I was a coder, when I was an ESL teacher in China, I had multiple students approach me (those I had made friends with, they were all 20-somethings and over) and ask me if I was OK, because I looked angry. I appreciated their concern but I didn't feel angry, so I had no clue what they were talking about. It was only later that I learned about the concept of a "resting ___ face", and that I might possess one. This is a huge reason why I support WFH policies and personally take advantage of them. I don't personally feel the need to "fix" myself; doing so would involve putting on an artifice in order to placate people whose impression of me is founded on incorrect assumptions. It would make me feel like I was walking on eggshells, and it would take up precious mental bandwidth which would be better spent on the work problem at hand. WFH means management of my facial expression is one less thing I have to worry about, since people can only see my Zoom avatar at best, and usually only see the section of the laptop screen that I'm sharing. Counter to what anti-WFH advocates say, it actually makes me more likely to form close bonds with my coworkers, since they're less likely to jump to conclusions about my demeanor and personality if they aren't privy to my facial expression.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
I don't think resting bitch face is about looking angry, but I understand your overall point.
- uuddlrlrbaba 4y ago
  What is it about if not looking angry?
  - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
    looking unapproachable while having no facial expressions. Some people just look like assholes, it doesn't imply they look angry.
    - dceddia 4y ago
      > Some people just look like assholes Something I wonder about is how much of an effect movies and TV have had on what we generally consider to be mean-looking or friendly-looking traits. I don’t know which way the cause-and-effect goes though. Do we instinctively as humans think that people who look a certain way give off an “evil” vibe, and that’s why Hollywood chooses actors with those faces? Or have they trained us that certain faces are “evil” because they’re always typecast as bad guys? One random example: when I first saw Kylo Ren in the recent Star Wars trilogy, my first thought was… I bet he’s gonna turn good. His face is too friendly. If he were bad to the core they would’ve picked an evil-looking guy.
      - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
        Same thing with people who have a scarred face or have a British accent (for US audiences anyway). You almost always know they're going to turn out to be the bad guy.
- rewgs 4y ago
  What else could it possibly be about?
  - cafard 4y ago
    https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/alternatives-to-resting-bitch-face https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/alternatives-to-resting-...
sedeki 4y ago
I agree that you don't need to change who you are by "fixing" something. But it is a weak argument for WFH by itself, don't you think?
- toomanyrichies 4y ago
  I didn't say it was my only reason. I said "This is a huge reason...". There are quite a few others as well. I didn't list them, because they're irrelevant to the "Ask HN" question, and are therefore off-topic.
  - sedeki 4y ago
    OK, yes you're right - it would indeed be off topic. I actually recognize that line of reasoning myself. But since losing weight and working on myself (e.g. going to a therapist) I feel much better. My point is: There was bigger issues at play for me when I didn't want to work from an office...
freedomben 4y ago
That tendency of other humans to jump to conclusions about a person's demeanor and personality based on facial expression is one of the most irritating characteristics of humans. No matter how many times we hear cliche's like "don't judge a book by its cover," people routinely (and confidently) do that all the time.
- toomanyrichies 4y ago
  I agree. I've also come to accept that it's part of human nature and, on an evolutionary scale, is probably a net good. "Judging a book by its cover" probably saved countless cavemen from being eaten by lions, and probably has similar effects today. Nevertheless, your point still stands- it is indeed incredibly unfortunate, for the reasons you mentioned.
  - dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
    >probably saved countless cavemen from being eaten by lions Though the laughing hyena found a way to game the system...
- asveikau 4y ago
  At the same time I think a lot of people walk around angry at the world and unaware of their problem. Or a lot of people are depressed and don't realize it. Or any number of issues. A lot of times it can be all over somebody's face and body language. Self awareness is hard. I used to take selfies to help neutrally assess my own mood. A lot of the time I was feeling something and unaware, but I could tell from the photo.
  - freedomben 4y ago
    Yes very true, it's "correct" often enough that it does start to build confidence. I think that's what makes it so frustrating. Especially when you know the person well, facial expression can be a really good indicator. The main problem IMHO comes in when people try to read into facial expressions of people they don't know and draw wide conclusions from it. If people mainly saw strangers looking unhappy and thought, "oh wow that person must be having a bad day" it would probably be a net positive in society. But I have no idea how to convince people to think that way.
flippinburgers 4y ago
WFH also means interviews from home. I'm a slender person but am not obviously so in video form. I'm also not especially tall. Again, not obvious. So there are several nice equalizers about WFH that some people don't seem to consider. Anyway, I agree with you that WFH is too good to give up.
adastra22 4y ago
God forbid I told a female coworker to smile more. I think I would be getting a visit from HR if I did. Yet that is essentially what they are telling you to do…
- TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago
- treeman79 4y ago
  My daughters are in performing sports. Cheer, gymnastics, skating, etc. One is fantastic about having a huge smile while she does her routine. The other goes the super focused borderline angry looking face when she focuses. We actually know she’s giving it her all when she’s giving that face. If she’s goofing off and just having fun then she smiles. Unfortunately judges don’t like it so much. We’re going on 10 years of trying to get her to smile during a routine with no success. She also can’t smile on command for photos. It’s quite cringe worthy.
tayo42 4y ago
> This is a huge reason why I support WFH policies and personally take advantage of them. I dont know if i can even work in an office anymore without scaring people. I developed a habit of cursing or mumbling under my breath. haha
- clolege 4y ago
  I would sometimes record myself developing at my last job. Both screen and camera. It was really enlightening to see both the faces that I made throughout the day, as well as how I could have gone about debugging issues faster. I've since improved the faces that I make, and I think it helps my mood. It's similar to the effect of how if you smile and nod while eating something gross you acquire the taste faster :)
  - jorisboris 4y ago
    I did that as well. Video taping myself in meetings, and while working. Or just keeping a Zoom meeting open with only myself in it. It's very confronting at times!
    - clolege 4y ago
      What have you noticed? Have you made any changes based off of it?
jorisboris 4y ago
Multiple researchers have shown that body language feeds back on how you feel. So maybe you don't want to "fix" yourself for others, but you might consider it for yourself.

P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago

I don't think resting bitch face is about looking angry, but I understand your overall point.

uuddlrlrbaba 4y ago
What is it about if not looking angry?
- P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
  looking unapproachable while having no facial expressions. Some people just look like assholes, it doesn't imply they look angry.
  - dceddia 4y ago
    > Some people just look like assholes Something I wonder about is how much of an effect movies and TV have had on what we generally consider to be mean-looking or friendly-looking traits. I don’t know which way the cause-and-effect goes though. Do we instinctively as humans think that people who look a certain way give off an “evil” vibe, and that’s why Hollywood chooses actors with those faces? Or have they trained us that certain faces are “evil” because they’re always typecast as bad guys? One random example: when I first saw Kylo Ren in the recent Star Wars trilogy, my first thought was… I bet he’s gonna turn good. His face is too friendly. If he were bad to the core they would’ve picked an evil-looking guy.
    - P5fRxh5kUvp2th 4y ago
      Same thing with people who have a scarred face or have a British accent (for US audiences anyway). You almost always know they're going to turn out to be the bad guy.
rewgs 4y ago
What else could it possibly be about?
- cafard 4y ago
  https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/alternatives-to-resting-bitch-face https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/alternatives-to-resting-...

sedeki 4y ago

I agree that you don't need to change who you are by "fixing" something. But it is a weak argument for WFH by itself, don't you think?

toomanyrichies 4y ago
I didn't say it was my only reason. I said "This is a huge reason...". There are quite a few others as well. I didn't list them, because they're irrelevant to the "Ask HN" question, and are therefore off-topic.
- sedeki 4y ago
  OK, yes you're right - it would indeed be off topic. I actually recognize that line of reasoning myself. But since losing weight and working on myself (e.g. going to a therapist) I feel much better. My point is: There was bigger issues at play for me when I didn't want to work from an office...

freedomben 4y ago

That tendency of other humans to jump to conclusions about a person's demeanor and personality based on facial expression is one of the most irritating characteristics of humans. No matter how many times we hear cliche's like "don't judge a book by its cover," people routinely (and confidently) do that all the time.

toomanyrichies 4y ago
I agree. I've also come to accept that it's part of human nature and, on an evolutionary scale, is probably a net good. "Judging a book by its cover" probably saved countless cavemen from being eaten by lions, and probably has similar effects today. Nevertheless, your point still stands- it is indeed incredibly unfortunate, for the reasons you mentioned.
- dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  >probably saved countless cavemen from being eaten by lions Though the laughing hyena found a way to game the system...
asveikau 4y ago
At the same time I think a lot of people walk around angry at the world and unaware of their problem. Or a lot of people are depressed and don't realize it. Or any number of issues. A lot of times it can be all over somebody's face and body language. Self awareness is hard. I used to take selfies to help neutrally assess my own mood. A lot of the time I was feeling something and unaware, but I could tell from the photo.
- freedomben 4y ago
  Yes very true, it's "correct" often enough that it does start to build confidence. I think that's what makes it so frustrating. Especially when you know the person well, facial expression can be a really good indicator. The main problem IMHO comes in when people try to read into facial expressions of people they don't know and draw wide conclusions from it. If people mainly saw strangers looking unhappy and thought, "oh wow that person must be having a bad day" it would probably be a net positive in society. But I have no idea how to convince people to think that way.

flippinburgers 4y ago

WFH also means interviews from home. I'm a slender person but am not obviously so in video form. I'm also not especially tall. Again, not obvious. So there are several nice equalizers about WFH that some people don't seem to consider. Anyway, I agree with you that WFH is too good to give up.

adastra22 4y ago

God forbid I told a female coworker to smile more. I think I would be getting a visit from HR if I did. Yet that is essentially what they are telling you to do…

TheGhostOfBoris 4y ago
treeman79 4y ago
My daughters are in performing sports. Cheer, gymnastics, skating, etc. One is fantastic about having a huge smile while she does her routine. The other goes the super focused borderline angry looking face when she focuses. We actually know she’s giving it her all when she’s giving that face. If she’s goofing off and just having fun then she smiles. Unfortunately judges don’t like it so much. We’re going on 10 years of trying to get her to smile during a routine with no success. She also can’t smile on command for photos. It’s quite cringe worthy.

tayo42 4y ago

> This is a huge reason why I support WFH policies and personally take advantage of them. I dont know if i can even work in an office anymore without scaring people. I developed a habit of cursing or mumbling under my breath. haha

clolege 4y ago
I would sometimes record myself developing at my last job. Both screen and camera. It was really enlightening to see both the faces that I made throughout the day, as well as how I could have gone about debugging issues faster. I've since improved the faces that I make, and I think it helps my mood. It's similar to the effect of how if you smile and nod while eating something gross you acquire the taste faster :)
- jorisboris 4y ago
  I did that as well. Video taping myself in meetings, and while working. Or just keeping a Zoom meeting open with only myself in it. It's very confronting at times!
  - clolege 4y ago
    What have you noticed? Have you made any changes based off of it?

jorisboris 4y ago

Multiple researchers have shown that body language feeds back on how you feel. So maybe you don't want to "fix" yourself for others, but you might consider it for yourself.