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I find threads like these funny, people complain about not enough software engineering such as not knowing design patterns or the details of a java implementati

by UK-Al05 15y ago

I find threads like these funny, people complain about not enough software engineering such as not knowing design patterns or the details of a java implementation. On the other hand a different group complain about the lack of of 'real' cs, which is mostly math. Two opposing views, but they think the argument is both in their favour. There is also a massive backlash against universities in the UK at the moment. I am seeing many 'apprentice' software developers, and freelance developers skipping university. They tell me they know more than the average university graduate. So I ask them about complexity? Nope. Predicate Logic? Nope. These are things taught in even the lowest polytechnic school and they don't know them. They don't know the bounds of their own ignorance because they think cs is just knowing a few programming languages, whipping up a few apps and websites. They know more languages the average graduate? Maybe. Can they do software engineering? The easy business stuff. Do they know cs? No. I think they have never been exposed to cs and don't how deep it goes. I've seen the accredited software developer apprenticeship curriculum and it's mostly java and design patterns. I think the focus on apprenticeships at the moment is creating a generation of software developers who don't know what NP-Complete means. Computer science is not whipping up applications with fancy design patterns, that's why you're better than them. Give them a few years and their cs background + Software engineering experience will begin to shine.

wmf 15y ago
Are those views really opposing? Do people who ask for more software engineering want it to replace hard CS or augment it?
- UK-Al05 15y ago
  I think you will find if you start adding design pattern modules or methodology modules. The people on the side of cs will moan about it being watered down. If you don't add them, the people on the side of software engineering, will say it's not relevant to business needs. If you try to compromise they both moan about university not being relevant...
  - demian 15y ago
    Design and methodology can be learned, but are hard to teach. And they are even harder to teach inside science or engineering schools.
demian 15y ago
I attribute that confusion to the fact that the term "Computer Science" is used as a facade for both Computing Science (a branch of mathematics), and the skills necessary to create and deploy software systems (which most of the time doesn't even require "engineering" math). It's like grouping "Industrial Design" and "Theoretical Physics" under the term "Physics", if "Industrial Design" also included "Product Managment".
- forensic 15y ago
  There's also the fact that zero science actually happens in a Computer Science department. But since our society worships science, everything has to be science or it's no good! Even stuff that isn't science!
  - demian 15y ago
    That depends. In some countries, there are "Exact Sciences" (basically Math and all the derivatives like statistics and computing) and "Natural Sciences" (like physics, chemistry and biology). But it's all semantics, the important thing (and the thing most people seem to agree upon) is that the status of CS as Science depends of the status of Mathematics as Science.
  - protomyth 15y ago
    Most majors with the word Science in them, aren't (political, social, etc.). I am really not sure how that happened.
    - forensic 15y ago
      Social sciences and political science are FAAAR more scientific than computer science. Computer science makes stuff like psychology, sociology and anthropology look rigorous. They actually do experiments and case studies and use real world evidence you know! CS papers have more in common with Literature than they do with the widely disparaged soft sciences like psychology.
  - tansey 15y ago
quizbiz 15y ago
I wonder if this trend will be contained to the UK looking forward. With MITx et al, in my opinion, this could be the beginning of an interesting trend. Technology has only begun to affect education.
- UK-Al05 15y ago
  I'm actually hoping some apprentice or self taught developers take the "Introduction to algorithm analysis" course from MITX if it's on offer. It's probably one most relevant cs style modules for software developers.
- lhnz 15y ago
  Actually, that's a good point. The UK government has setup their universities to be disrupted by higher quality courses that are not under their jurisdiction.
  - jiggy2011 15y ago
    Maybe that's what they want? There are already the exorbetently expensive "computeach" programs and similar.
wisty 15y ago
> I ask them about complexity? Nope. Predicate Logic? Nope. These are things taught in even the lowest polytechnic school and they don't know them. Depending on how the university works, students can cheat on homework then barely the exam (thanks to easy, formulaic questions that they can cram the night before), and still get decent marks. The university will compensate, with harder homework and an easier exam the next year.
- damncabbage 15y ago
  Also depends on the University full-stop. The CompSci part of my course was canned in favour of business subjects; I had the rug pulled out from under me after the first subject. (So I got Z-specs, automata and big-O notation. Umm. Thanks guys.)
buff-a 15y ago
They don't know the bounds of their own ignorance Other people never do, do they? It explains everything. You need look no further.

by UK-Al05 15y ago

wmf 15y ago

Are those views really opposing? Do people who ask for more software engineering want it to replace hard CS or augment it?

UK-Al05 15y ago
I think you will find if you start adding design pattern modules or methodology modules. The people on the side of cs will moan about it being watered down. If you don't add them, the people on the side of software engineering, will say it's not relevant to business needs. If you try to compromise they both moan about university not being relevant...
- demian 15y ago
  Design and methodology can be learned, but are hard to teach. And they are even harder to teach inside science or engineering schools.

demian 15y ago

I attribute that confusion to the fact that the term "Computer Science" is used as a facade for both Computing Science (a branch of mathematics), and the skills necessary to create and deploy software systems (which most of the time doesn't even require "engineering" math). It's like grouping "Industrial Design" and "Theoretical Physics" under the term "Physics", if "Industrial Design" also included "Product Managment".

forensic 15y ago
There's also the fact that zero science actually happens in a Computer Science department. But since our society worships science, everything has to be science or it's no good! Even stuff that isn't science!
- demian 15y ago
  That depends. In some countries, there are "Exact Sciences" (basically Math and all the derivatives like statistics and computing) and "Natural Sciences" (like physics, chemistry and biology). But it's all semantics, the important thing (and the thing most people seem to agree upon) is that the status of CS as Science depends of the status of Mathematics as Science.
- protomyth 15y ago
  Most majors with the word Science in them, aren't (political, social, etc.). I am really not sure how that happened.
  - forensic 15y ago
    Social sciences and political science are FAAAR more scientific than computer science. Computer science makes stuff like psychology, sociology and anthropology look rigorous. They actually do experiments and case studies and use real world evidence you know! CS papers have more in common with Literature than they do with the widely disparaged soft sciences like psychology.
- tansey 15y ago

quizbiz 15y ago

I wonder if this trend will be contained to the UK looking forward. With MITx et al, in my opinion, this could be the beginning of an interesting trend. Technology has only begun to affect education.

UK-Al05 15y ago
I'm actually hoping some apprentice or self taught developers take the "Introduction to algorithm analysis" course from MITX if it's on offer. It's probably one most relevant cs style modules for software developers.
lhnz 15y ago
Actually, that's a good point. The UK government has setup their universities to be disrupted by higher quality courses that are not under their jurisdiction.
- jiggy2011 15y ago
  Maybe that's what they want? There are already the exorbetently expensive "computeach" programs and similar.

wisty 15y ago

> I ask them about complexity? Nope. Predicate Logic? Nope. These are things taught in even the lowest polytechnic school and they don't know them. Depending on how the university works, students can cheat on homework then barely the exam (thanks to easy, formulaic questions that they can cram the night before), and still get decent marks. The university will compensate, with harder homework and an easier exam the next year.

damncabbage 15y ago
Also depends on the University full-stop. The CompSci part of my course was canned in favour of business subjects; I had the rug pulled out from under me after the first subject. (So I got Z-specs, automata and big-O notation. Umm. Thanks guys.)

buff-a 15y ago

They don't know the bounds of their own ignorance Other people never do, do they? It explains everything. You need look no further.