3 ms·

Well, my comment was highly abbreviated for the sake of pithiness, but US ratification of the treaty would be more meaningful than the US simply not employing l

Well, my comment was highly abbreviated for the sake of pithiness, but US ratification of the treaty would be more meaningful than the US simply not employing landmines itself. (NB While I place all the blame on senators for not ratifying it, technically no US president has signed it, so the Senate hasn't actually had the opportunity to ratify, but Senate leaders have made their opposition clear for decades so they definitely deserve the blame I'm pointing in their direction.) Furthermore, landmines haven't actually been a weapon that the US military has considered tactically useful in nearly 50 years, so saying that we won'ist use them (because they're not useful to us), but not pressuring other countries which may find them useful despite their horrific downsides, isn't exactly upstanding. And, the article title on HN is misleading, because this isn't just about landmines, it's about unexploded ordnance (UXO) more generally. The US, in addition to not signing the Mine Ban Convention, refuses to sign/ratify the Convention on Cluster Munitions, and has significant quantities of cluster munitions in the inventory, with an alarmingly high failure rate (meaning the munition doesn't detonate when it is supposed to, leaving dangerous UXO that only becomes more dangerous over time). So, yes, there's nuance, but honestly not enough to let US leaders off the hook for these horrors.

atlasunshrugged 4y ago
I'm not sure why the blame would rest on the political side. Yes, they are the ones who would ratify the treaty, but I'm sure they would be happy to do so unless the DOD was whispering in their ear (or shouting) that it would damage their warfighting capabilities. Maybe there are some special interests too but I'm skeptical the industry is big enough to have that kind of pull, whereas SecDef telling a Senator on SASC not to do this is probably enough to make a treaty a nonstarter.
- DonHopkins 4y ago
  The Democrats are for the treaty, so the Republicans are against it, just to own the libs, no matter what the cost or consequences or morality, regardless of the facts or anything based on reality or science or humanity. >2014: The United States under President Barack Obama mostly accepted the terms of the treaty by ceasing to acquire anti-personnel land mines and prohibiting their use outside of the Korean Peninsula. >2020: The United States under President Donald Trump reversed the Obama policy change and restored the George W. Bush administration position on anti-personnel landlines, authorizing Combatant Commanders to employ "advanced, non-persistent landmines". >Trump eases restrictions on land mine use by U.S. military: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN1ZU2GA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN... >2022: President of the United States Joe Biden reverses the policy of his predecessor, Trump, and continues disarmament, saying that the United States will not produce or acquire anti-personnel mines, will not support any other country in its use of these mines, and commits to destroying all existing anti-personnel mines in its possession (excluding those on the Korean Peninsula). >Biden administration commits to limiting use of land mines: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/21/biden-land-mines-trump-policy-00040925 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/21/biden-land-mines-tr...
  - uni_rule 4y ago
    "Sorry, having morals is partisan and since they were there first I am against acting morally."
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      Remember, these are the same brilliant moral "leaders" who murdered their own base en masse just to own the libs, by telling them not to listen to what medical professionals were telling them to do, not to wear masks, not to get vaccinated, not to self isolate, but instead to inject disinfectant into their veins, shove ultraviolet flashlights up their wazoos, eat horse dewormer pills, then mount a violent insurrection by storming the US Capitol. Leaders who don't believe in evolution or science or medicine or empathy, but are actively reducing the gene pool of people stupid enough to follow them. Not to mention stealing classified documents and dining with white supremacists. So yes, a lot of blame rests on the political side. More Republicans Died Than Democrats after COVID-19 Vaccines Came Out: https://www.nextgov.com/ideas/2022/11/more-republicans-died-democrats-after-covid-19-vaccines-came-out/380279/ https://www.nextgov.com/ideas/2022/11/more-republicans-died-...
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    Thank you. That matches with my own understanding better than "usa doesn't practically use or procure mines " from previous posts.
- Spooky23 4y ago
  Senators > Generals. The Senate has a lot of power and is insulated from the electorate in such a way as an issue like this is not a threat to them. For whatever reason, the leaders who control what makes it to the Senate floor did not send it there. They own that - it’s their call.
  - bluGill 4y ago
    Not when there is a war - generals can and likely will shoot senators. US generals are patriotic enough to not kill US senators, but foreign generals that the US might be fighting in the future will target senators.
    - pc86 4y ago
      This is a comment out of a fantasy world.
      - bluGill 4y ago
        That is how WWI started. It wasn't a US politician, politicians are targeted at times.
    - DonHopkins 4y ago
      A reality check history reminder: a certain US President sent a mob of raving mad racist violent lunatics to storm the US Capitol and assassinate the US Vice President and US Senators, in a failed attempt to overturn the results of the election that he lost. Remember the gallows that Trump's mob built and chanted "Hang Mike Pence"? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/16/us/politics/jan-6-gallows.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/16/us/politics/jan-6-gallows... And how Trump reacted approvingly? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/politics/trump-pence-jan-6.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/politics/trump-pence-j... The same US President who eased the restrictions on land mines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN1ZU2GA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN...
    - Spooky23 4y ago
      This isn’t Guatemala. LARPing maga types may have fantasies about this, but don’t have the ability to execute and follow through.
otikik 4y ago
Is this a case of “If you pressure others to not use mines, you cannot sell them mines afterwards”?

atlasunshrugged 4y ago

I'm not sure why the blame would rest on the political side. Yes, they are the ones who would ratify the treaty, but I'm sure they would be happy to do so unless the DOD was whispering in their ear (or shouting) that it would damage their warfighting capabilities. Maybe there are some special interests too but I'm skeptical the industry is big enough to have that kind of pull, whereas SecDef telling a Senator on SASC not to do this is probably enough to make a treaty a nonstarter.

DonHopkins 4y ago
The Democrats are for the treaty, so the Republicans are against it, just to own the libs, no matter what the cost or consequences or morality, regardless of the facts or anything based on reality or science or humanity. >2014: The United States under President Barack Obama mostly accepted the terms of the treaty by ceasing to acquire anti-personnel land mines and prohibiting their use outside of the Korean Peninsula. >2020: The United States under President Donald Trump reversed the Obama policy change and restored the George W. Bush administration position on anti-personnel landlines, authorizing Combatant Commanders to employ "advanced, non-persistent landmines". >Trump eases restrictions on land mine use by U.S. military: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN1ZU2GA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN... >2022: President of the United States Joe Biden reverses the policy of his predecessor, Trump, and continues disarmament, saying that the United States will not produce or acquire anti-personnel mines, will not support any other country in its use of these mines, and commits to destroying all existing anti-personnel mines in its possession (excluding those on the Korean Peninsula). >Biden administration commits to limiting use of land mines: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/21/biden-land-mines-trump-policy-00040925 https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/21/biden-land-mines-tr...
- uni_rule 4y ago
  "Sorry, having morals is partisan and since they were there first I am against acting morally."
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    Remember, these are the same brilliant moral "leaders" who murdered their own base en masse just to own the libs, by telling them not to listen to what medical professionals were telling them to do, not to wear masks, not to get vaccinated, not to self isolate, but instead to inject disinfectant into their veins, shove ultraviolet flashlights up their wazoos, eat horse dewormer pills, then mount a violent insurrection by storming the US Capitol. Leaders who don't believe in evolution or science or medicine or empathy, but are actively reducing the gene pool of people stupid enough to follow them. Not to mention stealing classified documents and dining with white supremacists. So yes, a lot of blame rests on the political side. More Republicans Died Than Democrats after COVID-19 Vaccines Came Out: https://www.nextgov.com/ideas/2022/11/more-republicans-died-democrats-after-covid-19-vaccines-came-out/380279/ https://www.nextgov.com/ideas/2022/11/more-republicans-died-...
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Thank you. That matches with my own understanding better than "usa doesn't practically use or procure mines " from previous posts.
Spooky23 4y ago
Senators > Generals. The Senate has a lot of power and is insulated from the electorate in such a way as an issue like this is not a threat to them. For whatever reason, the leaders who control what makes it to the Senate floor did not send it there. They own that - it’s their call.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Not when there is a war - generals can and likely will shoot senators. US generals are patriotic enough to not kill US senators, but foreign generals that the US might be fighting in the future will target senators.
  - pc86 4y ago
    This is a comment out of a fantasy world.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      That is how WWI started. It wasn't a US politician, politicians are targeted at times.
  - DonHopkins 4y ago
    A reality check history reminder: a certain US President sent a mob of raving mad racist violent lunatics to storm the US Capitol and assassinate the US Vice President and US Senators, in a failed attempt to overturn the results of the election that he lost. Remember the gallows that Trump's mob built and chanted "Hang Mike Pence"? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/16/us/politics/jan-6-gallows.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/16/us/politics/jan-6-gallows... And how Trump reacted approvingly? https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/politics/trump-pence-jan-6.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/25/us/politics/trump-pence-j... The same US President who eased the restrictions on land mines. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN1ZU2GA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-war-landmines-idUSKBN...
  - Spooky23 4y ago
    This isn’t Guatemala. LARPing maga types may have fantasies about this, but don’t have the ability to execute and follow through.

otikik 4y ago

Is this a case of “If you pressure others to not use mines, you cannot sell them mines afterwards”?