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One thing I don't understand is why people like these embrace religion instead of rejecting it - aren't most tied to centuries-old, powerful and somewhat shady/

One thing I don't understand is why people like these embrace religion instead of rejecting it - aren't most tied to centuries-old, powerful and somewhat shady/mysterious organizations?

erulabs 4y ago
You're not wrong, but I doubt very many people who think the Illuminati exist are Catholics. One can be a Christian without being a Catholic - and it only adds to the self-reenforcing narrative: If Christianity was taken over by a shadowy evil cadre, why not any other large organization? To me the big mystery isn't why some people believe untestable self-reenforcing ideas, but why any of us don't. Being skeptical and careful with your conclusions is the harder option, by far.
naet 4y ago
People suffering from mental issues like this usually aren't thinking fully rationally. A good friend of mine had a sudden schizophrenic break once. Before it happened he was very much a math/science/computer guy, smart and logical and very anti religious. But after something happened that changed his brain chemistry he wasn't able to keep up the same level of logical thinking; he failed out of classes he was previously doing well in, lost his job, lost his girlfriend, and started behaving strangely. He had begun hearing voices and having strange thoughts and couldn't always form coherent sentences or ideas. Since I was a close friend he eventually confided in me some of his personal thoughts, like that he thought the world was ending and he was hearing from angels and demons. He would do irrational things like play the same songs over and over on his speakers for me, as though he was trying to use them to communicate some hidden meaning that I couldn't grasp from listening to them (they were very random songs without any obvious intrinsic meaning). On one occasion he suddenly became violent and lashed out towards some people he had previously gotten along with, and when I looked into his eyes in that moment it was like there was zero recognition despite our years of friendship. It was very sad and a bit frightening to see him go through such a drastic and sudden change in personality and ability.
lo_zamoyski 4y ago
The only bona fide centuries-old (actually, millennia-old) religious institution I can think of is the Catholic Church. All the others are largely religious traditions, more or less, that are centuries-old, but not continuously operating institutions. There is nothing here that suggests these guys had any love for the Church (certainly, their conspiratorial mode would not sit well with the rational spirit of Catholicism). Just because someone says "Jesus!" or "Satan!" doesn't make him a Catholic, or even a Christian or a Muslim, for that matter. For all we know, these guys thought Pope Francis is a reptilian who drinks the blood of altar boys who've recovered from COVID, or at least the usual array of Protestant conspiracy theories about the papacy. (I might add that calling the Catholic Church shady/mysterious is giving too much credit to whatever malicious elements exist within it, similar to how conspiracy theories in general assume a scale and degree of coordination, competence, and secrecy that is practically impossible. As the joke goes, if a business were run this way, it would not last two weeks, let alone two millennia.)

One thing I don't understand is why people like these embrace religion instead of rejecting it - aren't most tied to centuries-old, powerful and somewhat shady/mysterious organizations?

erulabs 4y ago

You're not wrong, but I doubt very many people who think the Illuminati exist are Catholics. One can be a Christian without being a Catholic - and it only adds to the self-reenforcing narrative: If Christianity was taken over by a shadowy evil cadre, why not any other large organization? To me the big mystery isn't why some people believe untestable self-reenforcing ideas, but why any of us don't. Being skeptical and careful with your conclusions is the harder option, by far.

naet 4y ago

People suffering from mental issues like this usually aren't thinking fully rationally. A good friend of mine had a sudden schizophrenic break once. Before it happened he was very much a math/science/computer guy, smart and logical and very anti religious. But after something happened that changed his brain chemistry he wasn't able to keep up the same level of logical thinking; he failed out of classes he was previously doing well in, lost his job, lost his girlfriend, and started behaving strangely. He had begun hearing voices and having strange thoughts and couldn't always form coherent sentences or ideas. Since I was a close friend he eventually confided in me some of his personal thoughts, like that he thought the world was ending and he was hearing from angels and demons. He would do irrational things like play the same songs over and over on his speakers for me, as though he was trying to use them to communicate some hidden meaning that I couldn't grasp from listening to them (they were very random songs without any obvious intrinsic meaning). On one occasion he suddenly became violent and lashed out towards some people he had previously gotten along with, and when I looked into his eyes in that moment it was like there was zero recognition despite our years of friendship. It was very sad and a bit frightening to see him go through such a drastic and sudden change in personality and ability.

lo_zamoyski 4y ago

The only bona fide centuries-old (actually, millennia-old) religious institution I can think of is the Catholic Church. All the others are largely religious traditions, more or less, that are centuries-old, but not continuously operating institutions. There is nothing here that suggests these guys had any love for the Church (certainly, their conspiratorial mode would not sit well with the rational spirit of Catholicism). Just because someone says "Jesus!" or "Satan!" doesn't make him a Catholic, or even a Christian or a Muslim, for that matter. For all we know, these guys thought Pope Francis is a reptilian who drinks the blood of altar boys who've recovered from COVID, or at least the usual array of Protestant conspiracy theories about the papacy. (I might add that calling the Catholic Church shady/mysterious is giving too much credit to whatever malicious elements exist within it, similar to how conspiracy theories in general assume a scale and degree of coordination, competence, and secrecy that is practically impossible. As the joke goes, if a business were run this way, it would not last two weeks, let alone two millennia.)