10 ms·

I've always wondered if, for example, Amazon, could be using reusable totes instead of cardboard. I get that they'd have to transport them back and they have we

I've always wondered if, for example, Amazon, could be using reusable totes instead of cardboard. I get that they'd have to transport them back and they have weight, but they deliver regularly enough to my house that it seems doable now - maybe just for monthly things like subscribe and save.

mter 4y ago
It's extremely time consuming to collect bags, stage bags at the fcs, and the bags have to be cleaned between uses which would negate any environmental savings.
eropple 4y ago
They tried to do that with Amazon Fresh. Their delivery folks didn't pick up the bags when they were left out, though, even when Amazon said they would.
- dylan604 4y ago
  The failure of the employee doomed the policy. There's no way to defend against that
  - mixmastamyk 4y ago
    But why? Recently had one of those amzn pull baskets (for small packages) left forgotten on our street. Told next delivery peeps several times, they wouldn’t take it.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Exception handling is usually a specific job in logistics, often titled 'problem solve' or similar. The people doing delivery routes only have the time/information/procedures in place to do their assigned tasks. They probably don't have the time, space, or information to determine what to do with that basket. It was someone else's job assignment.
      - Hackbraten 4y ago
        I know that “computer” used to be a profession. But who would have thought “exception handler” was one, too?
  - eropple 4y ago
    "Pay delivery people a wage that makes them care" is an option.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      Doubtful. It's just easier to not do it and take the new wages. You'd have to eliminate everyone, and start over. Doubtful performance reviews would motivate them either with/without said raise.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        Just have a machine back at the Amazon pickup point that farts out quarters when given boxes, suddenly all the employees will be picking them up.
      - topaz0 4y ago
        This is the reason nobody ever does any of the work they're paid to do. Easier not to, right?
        dylan604 4y ago
        When the precedent has been established as doing less than expected and no negative ramifications, it is difficult to get those same employees to change. If you have good employees already, then that's the norm. I've had good and bad experiences with Amazon delivery. I have no idea if those good/bad experiences are from 3rd party people hired by Amazon or if they are Amazon employees. Doesn't matter to the end user though. Just like in any large organization, there will always be lower performing workers. When you're so desperate that you cannot eliminate these workers, then there is no incentive to change. Just like other uniform wearing services, it's the "bad apples" that get all of the attention, and they are probably vastly out numbered by the good apples. That's just not how society works by focusing on the good when there's so much more traction by beating on the negatives (just look at the socials and their entire core functionality).
    - kube-system 4y ago
      Amazon logistics, at least in my area, pays significantly more than competitors. They had to, in order to accomplish the insane growth they've undergone over recent years. However, they've also had to reduce their hiring standards to somewhere around "can you fog a mirror". It is really not possible to understate how insane their hiring growth is. I think the only organizations in history to grow their headcount faster are militaries under periods of conscription. And currently, the only two organizations with a larger total headcount... are the worlds' two largest militaries.
bombcar 4y ago
The way to do it would be a deposit-style setup. Each basket is charged to you as a dollar, and you return it and get the dollar back, or something. But the reality is cardboard is too cheap and easy to use - even major companies like Walmart use cardboard boxes (that do have a "please return this, it costed us a dollar" on it) instead of plastic or metal.
tiagod 4y ago
Is cotton produftion less intensive than cardboard?
- topaz0 4y ago
  OP is maybe talking about a plastic tote, but what really matters is how many times you can reuse it. I don't know about cardboard, but iirc for the plastic vs. canvas bag comparison I believe the break-even is on the order of 20 uses to 1. i.e. if you can use the canvas bag 20 times more than the plastic bag before discarding it, the canvas bag is less resource intensive.
  - TylerE 4y ago
    It's much much much worse than that. Almost 3 orders of magnitude. https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/04/30/plastic-paper-cotton-bags/ https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/04/30/plastic-paper-c... " In addition, they are difficult to recycle since textile recycling in the U.S. is limited—only 15.2 percent of all textiles were recycled in 2017. As a result, a cotton bag needs to be used 7,100 times to equal the environmental profile of a plastic bag."
    - topaz0 4y ago
      Looking around it seems estimates vary by a fair bit, and the one you cite is on the high end. Other estimates are in the low hundreds, which is a very attainable number of reuses. But it does seem my memory was unrealistically low. Also an aspect that is not considered in these studies is that canvas bags generally carry more stuff per bag than single use plastic ones, so taking 2 canvas bags to the grocery store can save 6 or 8 plastic bags.
      - TylerE 4y ago
        The difference seems to be how far down the rabbithole you go - are you only tracking the energy to make/ship/(hopefully recycle) the bag or, as the study I linked does, goes all the way back to the plant in the field. Cotton is very water intensive.
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
Seem like one could devise a system where they don't have to make the full circuit each time: Give each one a unique QR code. If you need a box, query by dimensions and pay to have the nearest one shipped to you. If it happens to be in the house across the street, shipping will probably be cheap--or you can walk over and get it.
slillibri 4y ago
Reusable totes don’t really stack.
memco 4y ago
When Amazon fresh started out they had these insulated reusable heavy dusty bagsYou were supposed to return the bag with your next order. Eventually they stopped using the heavy duty insulated bags and just used cardboard with the small insulated bubble wrap inside. A similar delivery service would collect the bubble wrap but wouldn’t take the boxes. I often had clean boxes I wish they have taken also. I currently use a service that drops all the food off in a big metal box we leave on the porch: nothing to exchange or dispose of. I like this last arrangement the best, but I understand why that doesn’t scale very well and isn’t practiced by all services delivering perishable goods.
leobg 4y ago
There’s a German startup called LivingPackets. They advertised heavily on YouTube to attract investors. “Imagine you had invested in one of the big internet companies” was one of their lines. I think the BaFin stepped in (federal agency for regulation of the finance sector). Don’t know if they still exist.

mter 4y ago

It's extremely time consuming to collect bags, stage bags at the fcs, and the bags have to be cleaned between uses which would negate any environmental savings.

eropple 4y ago

They tried to do that with Amazon Fresh. Their delivery folks didn't pick up the bags when they were left out, though, even when Amazon said they would.

dylan604 4y ago
The failure of the employee doomed the policy. There's no way to defend against that
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  But why? Recently had one of those amzn pull baskets (for small packages) left forgotten on our street. Told next delivery peeps several times, they wouldn’t take it.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Exception handling is usually a specific job in logistics, often titled 'problem solve' or similar. The people doing delivery routes only have the time/information/procedures in place to do their assigned tasks. They probably don't have the time, space, or information to determine what to do with that basket. It was someone else's job assignment.
    - Hackbraten 4y ago
      I know that “computer” used to be a profession. But who would have thought “exception handler” was one, too?
- eropple 4y ago
  "Pay delivery people a wage that makes them care" is an option.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Doubtful. It's just easier to not do it and take the new wages. You'd have to eliminate everyone, and start over. Doubtful performance reviews would motivate them either with/without said raise.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      Just have a machine back at the Amazon pickup point that farts out quarters when given boxes, suddenly all the employees will be picking them up.
    - topaz0 4y ago
      This is the reason nobody ever does any of the work they're paid to do. Easier not to, right?
      - dylan604 4y ago
        When the precedent has been established as doing less than expected and no negative ramifications, it is difficult to get those same employees to change. If you have good employees already, then that's the norm. I've had good and bad experiences with Amazon delivery. I have no idea if those good/bad experiences are from 3rd party people hired by Amazon or if they are Amazon employees. Doesn't matter to the end user though. Just like in any large organization, there will always be lower performing workers. When you're so desperate that you cannot eliminate these workers, then there is no incentive to change. Just like other uniform wearing services, it's the "bad apples" that get all of the attention, and they are probably vastly out numbered by the good apples. That's just not how society works by focusing on the good when there's so much more traction by beating on the negatives (just look at the socials and their entire core functionality).
  - kube-system 4y ago
    Amazon logistics, at least in my area, pays significantly more than competitors. They had to, in order to accomplish the insane growth they've undergone over recent years. However, they've also had to reduce their hiring standards to somewhere around "can you fog a mirror". It is really not possible to understate how insane their hiring growth is. I think the only organizations in history to grow their headcount faster are militaries under periods of conscription. And currently, the only two organizations with a larger total headcount... are the worlds' two largest militaries.

bombcar 4y ago

The way to do it would be a deposit-style setup. Each basket is charged to you as a dollar, and you return it and get the dollar back, or something. But the reality is cardboard is too cheap and easy to use - even major companies like Walmart use cardboard boxes (that do have a "please return this, it costed us a dollar" on it) instead of plastic or metal.

tiagod 4y ago

Is cotton produftion less intensive than cardboard?

topaz0 4y ago
OP is maybe talking about a plastic tote, but what really matters is how many times you can reuse it. I don't know about cardboard, but iirc for the plastic vs. canvas bag comparison I believe the break-even is on the order of 20 uses to 1. i.e. if you can use the canvas bag 20 times more than the plastic bag before discarding it, the canvas bag is less resource intensive.
- TylerE 4y ago
  It's much much much worse than that. Almost 3 orders of magnitude. https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/04/30/plastic-paper-cotton-bags/ https://news.climate.columbia.edu/2020/04/30/plastic-paper-c... " In addition, they are difficult to recycle since textile recycling in the U.S. is limited—only 15.2 percent of all textiles were recycled in 2017. As a result, a cotton bag needs to be used 7,100 times to equal the environmental profile of a plastic bag."
  - topaz0 4y ago
    Looking around it seems estimates vary by a fair bit, and the one you cite is on the high end. Other estimates are in the low hundreds, which is a very attainable number of reuses. But it does seem my memory was unrealistically low. Also an aspect that is not considered in these studies is that canvas bags generally carry more stuff per bag than single use plastic ones, so taking 2 canvas bags to the grocery store can save 6 or 8 plastic bags.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      The difference seems to be how far down the rabbithole you go - are you only tracking the energy to make/ship/(hopefully recycle) the bag or, as the study I linked does, goes all the way back to the plant in the field. Cotton is very water intensive.

__MatrixMan__ 4y ago

Seem like one could devise a system where they don't have to make the full circuit each time: Give each one a unique QR code. If you need a box, query by dimensions and pay to have the nearest one shipped to you. If it happens to be in the house across the street, shipping will probably be cheap--or you can walk over and get it.

slillibri 4y ago

Reusable totes don’t really stack.

memco 4y ago

When Amazon fresh started out they had these insulated reusable heavy dusty bagsYou were supposed to return the bag with your next order. Eventually they stopped using the heavy duty insulated bags and just used cardboard with the small insulated bubble wrap inside. A similar delivery service would collect the bubble wrap but wouldn’t take the boxes. I often had clean boxes I wish they have taken also. I currently use a service that drops all the food off in a big metal box we leave on the porch: nothing to exchange or dispose of. I like this last arrangement the best, but I understand why that doesn’t scale very well and isn’t practiced by all services delivering perishable goods.

leobg 4y ago

There’s a German startup called LivingPackets. They advertised heavily on YouTube to attract investors. “Imagine you had invested in one of the big internet companies” was one of their lines. I think the BaFin stepped in (federal agency for regulation of the finance sector). Don’t know if they still exist.